G11 Pdw (Moved from archive)

[kato13]

shrike6 04-15-2004, 11:03 AM Came across this while surfing the net.


http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...=11:rare-proto

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shrike6 04-15-2004, 11:07 AM Also found the LMG version of the G11 as well.


http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...are-prototypes

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shrike6 04-15-2004, 02:44 PM http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...military-rifle

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TR 04-15-2004, 05:31 PM HEH


I have the G-11 PDW pistol on my site, but in the Dark Conspiracy section... I personally have always believed the G-11 design to have been interesting but I think there was no way for it to be implemented... cost to equip the German military in new weapons, parts and ammunition would have been high. Kind of like the OICW...



Just my 2 cents



TR

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ReHerakhte 04-16-2004, 04:28 AM The West German government had given approval to re-equip the army with the G11, from what I have read the budget was available. Apparently a handful had been delivered to various special units for field trials but the thing that really killed it was Unification.

The West German government spent plenty to integrate East Germany and a number of military and civilian projects were put on hold or outright cancelled (such as the replacement of the F-4 Phantoms in the Luftwaffe).


It's worth cruising around some other sites looking for Heckler & Koch firearms also, I found the following pic of the 1970-80s era HK32 on some obscure Spanish site a few years back. This was H&Ks foray into providing their rifle in 7.62mmSoviet. Apparently it was in the catalogue for a while but without any firm orders it was deleted. I haven't even been able to find any proper data on the damned thing but I makes for an interesting weapon to throw at the PC's!


Cheers,

Kevin

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TR 04-16-2004, 09:41 AM I always thought the HK 36 rifle showed the way the company was going before the G-11 was ever designed.


http://www.hkpro.com/mysteryhk.jpg


http://www.wapahani.com/imageNBC.JPG


Kevin, you can find info on the H&K 32 here:


http://www.hkpro.com/hk32.htm


which is the same site Shrike had posted links from. The H&K Pro site is pretty much the one stop refrence to all things H&K.


Until Later


TR

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ReHerakhte 04-16-2004, 08:34 PM He he, I haven't visited the HKPro site since literally three years ago when I was looking for info on the SL7 & SL8 (the HK32 might very well have been there then but I missed it).


But as for the G11, I think it actually began development in 1969 in response to a request for higher first round hit probability, whereas the G36 was developed a little later (true, only a year or so later) in response to the reduced-calibre/advanced rifle desires of some armies at that time. However, the G36 was dropped when the G11 project began to show results. So basically they were designed 'side-by-side' so to speak. The original concept behind the G11 was to speed up the firing mechanism to allow the rounds to leave the barrel before the firer felt the recoil and caseless ammo was seen as the best solution because it allowed the removal of the extraction & ejection phases of firing.


Like most European armies, at some point the West Germans were going to change from 7.62mmN but, from memory, at the end of the 1980s, they had chosen not to go for a 5.56mm like everyone else and had adopted the G11 instead. Apparently 1000 of them were actually issued before this replacement for the G3's was cancelled.

I seem to recall being told that the G41 was designed by H&K to kind of hedge their bets when they could see the budget for the G11 being lost to fund the integration of East Germany into West Germany.


I'm going from memory for much of this, I'd have to dig out my books to get the specific info, but looking at the HKPro site now it seems my memory hasn't let me down too badly - except for missing the HK32 on HKPro's site in the first place! So as some sort of 'face saving' attempt, I offer another pic I stole from the Spanish site I got the HK32 pic from (I was looking for info on the CETME rifles at the time). A prototype 7.62mmM43 rifle, although listed as Rheinmetall, the connection is obvious once you see it - and please let me have at least ONE pic that T.R. hasn't seen , you're too well read to compete against sometimes T.R.!


Cheers,

Kevin

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TR 04-17-2004, 03:48 PM HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH


I hate to break it to you Kevin but I parused that same Spanish site awhile back. Saved the pics to hard drive and then disc...





Bu that's ok I spend too much time as it is looking for firearms info as it is it seems. The what if question of the day is what would have happened if the G-11 had been adopted? Would we have seen other nations buy the weapon, develop their own weapons using the same caliber, etc?


Somehow I don't think so as a lot of nations had just gone from the 7.62 NATo to 5.56 NATO in the 1960's and 1970's. Great shame about the G-41 rifle and carbines though, I always liked the design and felt it was a better weapon than the H&K 33. Could have even seen weapons sales to all the countries that bought the H&K33!


As many folk know the major PC I had used a H&K G-41, of course as rare as it is I would today have to account for how he got one (which could be fun actually).



Later


TR

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ReHerakhte 04-18-2004, 09:24 AM AAAAARRRGGGHH CURSES!!


Foiled again (shakes fist at TR)


I agree with you, I think the G41 would have been an excellent choice as a 5.56mm weapon to replace older 7.62mmN designs and that the G11 probably would have had (very) limited sales even with major adoption by the German military. Ah well, it goes into the same "almost" basket as the British EM2 rifle...


Cheers,

Kevin

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TR 04-18-2004, 09:44 AM It's ok, nice to know there's someone else out there who knows this material as well...


For those of you who don't know about the EM-2 I culled this from my own page...


The EM-2 was spawn from the realization after World War II that the bolt action rifle was no longer the pinnacle of rifle technology. The call went forth to design a new automatic rifle as the Americans and Germans had done before them. The design fell to a Polish native who had fled to England during the war, Stefan Janson. The design made use of the then untested bullpup design, it was design to fire the 280 caliber round developed by Fabrique Nationale during this period from a 20 round box magazine. The rifle was fitted with a optic sight which did not magnify the target but merely allowing the shooter to aim quicker than with iron sights. The sight is designed into a carrying handle to help protect it from damage in the field. The magazine used was designed to allow the use of stripper clips to reload the magazine quicker than capable by hand. The weapon is capable of semiautomatic firing and full automatic bursts, the weapon is accurate out to ranges at 800 yards. Ironically had it not been for the re-election of Churchill to Prime Minister the 280 cartridge and then EM-2 may have been retained in service past 1951. Churchill began steps to standardize within the European Community and United States by adopting the 7.62 NATO round in the form of the FN-FAL.


http://www.wapahani.com/imageJHQ.JPG



Until Later


TR

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TiggerCCW UK 04-19-2004, 07:01 AM Ah, the EM2, what a fantastic rifle it could have been. I think it did in part lead to the development of the SA-80/L85A1, so it sort of lives on. I can recall a less than flattering article on the L85 describing it as the result of "ramming an AR-18 up the arse of an EM2".


As a side note I remember reading about an SMG that was viewed as a possible replacement for the Sten, around the same time as the EM2 was being looked at. Obviously the Sterling (or Patchett as it was known then) was adopted, but this one stuck in my mind because of the way it was cocked. You twisted the foregrip in the same way as you would use the throttle on a motorbike. I seem to remember another design at the time as well, possibly from a Polish designer, with a wire framed canvas stock that doubled as a holster (similar to the Mauser and VP-70), and the magazine went into the base of the pistol grip. Can anyone enlighten me?

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Antenna 04-19-2004, 12:22 PM Well, prior to this thread I made the HK32K Dated back to 09/APR/2004...


http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna...ifles/hk32.htm


Antenna

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[kato13]

HKpro apparently redesigned their site

I updated the links in the top portion of this thread.

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...=11:rare-proto..

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...are-prototypes

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...military-rifle

[StainlessSteelCynic]

With all the hype given to H&K over the G11, particularly by the HKPro website, one could be forgiven for believing that the G11 was the "one and only" caseless ammo military rifle. One could also be forgiven for thinking that the whole idea in the first place was to develop caseless ammo but that was not originally any part of the 1970s West German project that was examing ways to increase the rifleman's hit probability. The caseless approach came about later as a way to achieve the high fire rate (e.g by using the salvo-fire technique), felt necessary to increase hit probability

Diehl and Mauser were also given contracts to develop a suitable rifle for the project to increase hit probability and it appears that all three parties initially examined the salvo-fire concept as a way to achieve this. While I don't know anything about the Diehl rifle (and the fact that it is barely, if ever, mentioned may possibly suggest it never went much past the development stage), Mauser initially presented a three-barrel design but later dropped the design when the West German government decided the H&K offering with its fast rotating breech was a better solution to increasing hit probability.

In 1978 Mauser chose to present a new design using caseless ammo (apparently developed around about the same time as H&K's caseless ammo and for, presumably, the same reasons). These caseless rounds were conventional in layout but after H&K secured the contract for further development, Mauser chose to discontinue their project. The only reference I have seen aside from some info on the wiki page for the G11, is a late 1970s Jane's Infantry Weapons yearbook (and if I can ever find it in my boxes of books, I'll list the proper details of the book and the Mauser rifle).
It almost seems like Mauser has deliberately chosen to forget their own part in the project as there is so little information available it's no surprise that most people don't know about it, at least in the English speaking world.

[Sanjuro]

According to my battered copy of Modern Small Arms (Salamander, 1978, Frederick Myatt) the SMG with the twisting forestock was the BSA Experimental 1949.
http://www.historicalfirearms.info/p...1949-following
Another candidate was the MCEM2, a very advanced design which suffered from a very high rate of fire. (Designer: Lt. Podsenkowsky)
http://world.guns.ru/smg/brit/mcem-2-e.html
These links are just the result of a quick search after referring to the book: armed with the names it may be possible to find better pictures.

[Draq]

https://youtu.be/UoTU-X0qbnQ

[unkated]

And here I spent years looking at the picture in the book trying to figure what part of the G11's stock was the magazine...

Uncle Ted