Weapon Variation?

[kato13]

Milano 10-28-2004, 08:29 PM I am in the process of reworking alot of the weapons for T2K when a question came to me:


What really are the differences between weapons?


I mean a FA-MAS weighs 7 lb 15 oz, has a 19 in. barrel, and throws lead at 950 rounds a minute. A Steyr AUG weighs 7 lb 15 oz, has a 20 in. barrel, and has a cyclic rate of 650 rounds a minute.


The two rifles are darn near identical and have the same ratings in T2K except in the real world the FA-MAS fires more quickly. I've been using the Mpw-T2kv1 program to create weapons for some time but the limitations are that I cannot input ROF's. Do you all know of another program or a recoil formula?

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Antenna 10-29-2004, 11:34 AM Milano, you should try to get a Fire, Fusion & Steel for TNE, bid on ebay if you want a hard copy.


There you can see what ROF and Recoils and SS you can get from different weapons.


For instance 750 rpm = ROF(6.25), 650 rpm = ROF(5.42) both rounded to ROF(5)


Antenna

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Antenna 10-31-2004, 10:11 AM Milano you could also get hold of BTRCs Guns, Guns, Guns ... There is formulas to build weapons.


Also I "had" a Excel sheet for designing weapons with the exact ROF. It was a mix between GGG and FFS so the best parts of both systems was counted into the excel. But I dunnot know where I put that on my backups =(


Antenna

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Twilight2000V3 11-01-2004, 04:38 PM Hey dude,


They only difference I would adjust is the recoil values.


Most of the weapons in T2K are going to be the same. Ive re-worked them from the normal book too. The biggest changes was the ROF on most the weapons. I had the cut off being less than 699= ROF 5, 700+ RPM= ROF 10, 1000 RPM = ROF 20. It is easier than calculating the exact ROF.. it slows down the game.


The other change is the recoil values. Some are high others are low. One day ill get around to writing them down on WORD format and posting them.


Max

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ReHerakhte 11-02-2004, 06:25 AM I agree with Max, ROF and Recoil would be the two main issues.

For those of you familiar with the M16A1 who have also used the M16A2, do any of you recall the difference between the felt recoil when firing single shots and bursts? I have a vague recollection of the -A1 being quite well behaved in burst fire but the -A2 being a bit more of a handful (due to the different rifling/ammo mix between the two)

And although not having fired the FAMAS but having spoken to a guy from the French army, my impression was that in burst fire it was better behaved than the AUG (which I have used with the Australian army - it has a bad tendency to pull up to the right if you don't get a good grip on it).


Recoil is the big one for me because I had a few Players with no military experience try to fire full-auto lots of times until they saw the loss of 'to hit' dice they could roll. They finally got the concept that a Str 6 person was not going to be able to go for a 'Mad Minute' with a Recoil 7 weapon!


Cheers,

Kevin

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Twilight2000V3 11-02-2004, 08:02 AM I did not notice a big difference between the A1 or the A2. The A2, however, has ALOT different trigger pull while in burst. The 3rnd burst trigger has a different feel (pull wt.) every time you squeeze it unlike the HK system. It also does not reset if a short (1 or 2) round burst was fired (this is because Colt did not want to pay HK for licensing the 3rnd burst mechanism). This means that if you ran out of ammo in the weapon after firing only a 2 round burst, your next burst will only yield a 1 round burst.


I did notice a very big difference between a full size "16" and a carbine/M-4. The "16" has a "mushy" feel and you can feel the plunger/recoil spring moving in the butstock. The carbine is alot sharper hit.


Max

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Antenna 11-02-2004, 11:42 AM Well, when it comes to different ROF and recoil, so the thing I wanna say that I don't use the 2.2 rules rather a homebrew houserules/storytelling. And my current group I can only say that it works well really well, the system I know I can by heart at least 97% of it, the rest is nearby in my compendium I hand to my players, all different situations aren't really explained there so "if" I need to do a special thingie I "can" lean to T2k 2.2/TNE or rather say that a special outcome will happen.


The experience I have about rules and RPG is that when you have rulefreaks and munchkins or a mix from those two in any way.... You can either quit play with that group or hellbend for serious discoussions why situation A didn't work but situation B did ... even if they rolled like loosers in the first attempt and like kings in the other they want to discous this "flaw" in system...


BAck to the topic

Depending on system and how fine/rough you want it you can allow more OR less variation in ROF/Recoil/SS. My tweak of the 2.2 rules allows a finer scale of ROF than the BYB2.2 says and even FF&S says. But if I had stayed with the 2.2 or 2.0 rules I would have 1,3,5 and 10 in ROFs only, but not any longer.


Also really to compare weapons with each other you must also know why a specific weapon has the carastaristics it has. You have to know the philosophy behind the design to get the best out of it, and use the system you have in hand so it benefits you.

On the other hand you have the RPG, yes you can testfire every weapon in the world and get a judgement and make a system out of it. But then you need a not only one bag of cash you rather need three of them


So the best aproach to weapon designs in RPG is to say something like this; "we have different weapons and systems lets just use the laws of physics and get some formulas to scribble down and please the crowd AND also have a eye on our system so the designs doesn't bog down the play". This is what GDW and most designers do when they design the weapons for their books etc.


Myself has tried and I say I feel that I have a succes in my homebrew system with finer tuned ROF-scale and still don't bog down the play. So Milano or anyone else that wants a finer tuned ROF-scale and have an idea of the mechanics in gamerules to overcome the problem with bog downs in any system. Feel free to use them.

On the other hand if you use 2.0/2.2/TNE/DC you must almost follow the rules and not let more then 3,5,10 in ROF.


Antenna

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Milano 11-05-2004, 09:27 AM Wow, I didn't think my post would get such a following. Thank you all for your advise and the suggestion about the giudes.


I am a bit of a small arms afficianado which is why I'm trying to represent the small arms as realistically as I can. My thoughts were to have rofs mainly between 3 and 10. I was thinking along the lines of dividing the REAL cyclic rof by something abstract, like 120. AK-47 brst rof 5 (650 r/m) G41 brst rof 7 (850 r/m) etc.


Is the Fire Fusion and Steel compatable for t2k? On DriveThroughRPG they have different versions which one is the one to get?


Again Thanks.

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shrike6 11-05-2004, 03:26 PM Your looking for the Traveller The New Era (TNE) version, Milano. Traveller TNE and Twilight 2000 v2.0 were based off the GDW House system.

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ReHerakhte 11-07-2004, 05:37 AM Max and Antti brought up some points worth further investigation. I forgot to mention that I was using M16A2s as used by the British Army so they had full auto and no 3-rd burst. I have not used A2s equipped with the 3-rd burst so I can't compare them.

Which means that perhaps it might be worthwhile to have different entries for A2s equipped with 3-rd burst only and the A2s fitted with full-auto. GDW got around it by putting all types of fire option under the one M16A2 entry from what I remember.


Overall though, unless you want the realism to reach hideous levels of data (with far too much time spent poring over the books to find the correct results like in the Phoenix Command system!), it's probably quickest to simplify things like Antenna said so you have a system that doesn't get too bogged down when Players roll to hit. We can probably agree that many 5.56mm weapons for example have a similar recoil but there is enough differences due to design to justify a few variations in the game but how much work do you want to do with creating the data sheets is probably the biggest question.

I compiled a list of pistols once that encompassed practically everything Paul Mulcahy and TR had plus a stack of pistols they didn't have. It grew in size to around 103 pages with approximately two-three entries per page. After doing all that work, I completely lost interest in doing the same thing for the other firearms... (and to cap off my frustration with it, I lost most of it because I used a re-writtable CD-ROM once too many times and the data got corrupted).


Anyways, just some more thoughts!

Cheers,

Kevin

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TR 11-07-2004, 08:52 PM What? There is a stack of pistols Paul and myself DIDN'T cover!?!


:speechles


Sorry to hear you lost the data, nothing sucks more than doing all that hard work and losing it before anyone ever gets to see it.



Until Later


TR

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Antenna 11-09-2004, 04:43 PM Sidenote


I checked the ROF reference I told you about guys.


The RPM/120 is from Guns, Guns, Guns for ROF for T2k


Antenna

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dawg180 11-13-2004, 01:26 PM Is someone knocking my spreadsheet? That took a long time to put together, dammit, and I only modified it to make it work for T2k from the semi-broken FFS rules!


Here is my take: The FAMAS, Steyr AUG, and M16 (say full auto for arguments sake) all are 8.5 lb weapons firing a 5.56mm cartridge from a 20" barrel give or take. OF COURSE their recoil is going to be the same in the mechanics, as their physical data is all the same!


A good GM plays up the indivdual quirks of the weapons. For instance, I am running a mechwarrior game where I have generic stats for all assult rifles, carbines, etc. However, every time a character picks up one I show them a pic (usually of a real world weapon) and after they use it a bit I give them some description of what it feels like, how it functions, etc. To me this is the fun part. I have an Asault rifle in the game that everybody thinks is pretty decent but on a bad roll on full auto will jam incredibly bad due to the company cutting costs on manufacturing quality. The fun part is it hasn't happened yet, but is bound to!


If everyone just went by game stats then we all would carry HP35 pistols (despite its lack of a good drop safety, its quirky magazine disconnet, and its terrible trigger pull in real life) and no one would ever use a Steyr Aug LMG (which of course has incorrect recoil numbers, but you get the idea).


What T2k could have done better is have a "pros and cons" description or a better description in general of the unique functioning of each weapon, but I won't fault them for that as they did a pretty good job overall. To be honest I love newbie players as they usually just look at the pics and take the "coolest looking" weapon. You need to look past the stats.


As for the ROF, can any of you guys snap off an exact amount of rounds on full auto? A VERY well trained person can usually pull off 2-3 round snaps with an MP5 from what I hear, but you have to realize that it is simpy a mechanic. To be honest I like to just ask my players how long of a burst they are firing and a lot of times just dispense with the recoil, or only take it partially into consideration. No one should ever actually knows how many rounds are left in the mag when firing full auto- at least not until we all have neato digital counters on our rifles like Ripley and Cpl. Hicks


Actually I highly recommend the full auto rules from FASA's original Behind Enemy Lines if you see them as they are a lot better overall. Essentially a burst (which is 10 rounds in the game) give you a -2 to hit on 2D6 (two easier to hit), firing three bursts gives you a -3, and firing five bursts (usually emptying a mag) gives you a -4 IIRC. As you can see you have to use considerably more ammo to get better to-hits and it is a diminishing return, which I think is a good mechanic to reflect full auto vs. recoil. After you determine if they hit, they have a table to determine number of hits based on range. At close range you can hit with as many as 5 rounds, and usually 1-2 will drop a character (if you are hit more than 5 times I don't think it really matters at that point- the number of rounds is academic).


I also allow a "short burst" of around 5 rounds with a -1 to hit on most weapons such as the Tommy gun, MP40, Greasegun, and BAR except for a high ROF weapon like the MG42.


OK, there is my rant. A good discussion guys, I am glad this got started as it allowed me to talk about quite a few things I have mused on over the years.


Dawg

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dawg180 11-13-2004, 01:30 PM Sidenote


I checked the ROF reference I told you about guys.


The RPM/120 is from Guns, Guns, Guns for ROF for T2k


Antenna


RRM/120 would be based on the assumption that it is a half second burst. Sounds reasonable to me.


ETA: after thinking for a few minutes, I see why someone might want o t adjust the FA ROF, as that would affect the FA recoil value. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, I get it. Carry on!

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Antenna 11-13-2004, 02:58 PM I got a spreadsheet where the best assumptions from GGG and FFS is incorparated


Where it is ?


Let me dig thru my backups


Antenna


EDIT 1 :

The spreadsheet allows either % of max ROF or real world stats of ROF

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ReHerakhte 11-16-2004, 09:10 AM What? There is a stack of pistols Paul and myself DIDN'T cover!?!


:speechles




TR



he he he... yes TR as unlikely as that sounds :smokin:

If you can find it, get the book "The Complete Encyclopedia of Pistols And Revolvers" by A. E. Hartink ISBN 90 366 1463 5

My copy was published by REBO Publishers of the Netherlands in 1996 and comes in at 448 pages. Despite being by a Dutch author and published in the Netherlands this is an English language edition.


Amongst others, it covers the following: -

AMT - almost all AutoMag, BackUp and Hardballer pistol types

Bernadelli - most models (about 10 IIRC)

Briley - makers of special models of the M1911

Bul - from Israel

CZ - up to the CZ produced Colt Z40

FEG - Hungarian, 9 models

Israeli Arms International - more M1911 variants

Korriphilia - high quality but limited range

Norinco - 20+ models described

Para-Ordnance - around 15 models described

Sarsilmaz - Turkish CZ75 variants, with polymer frames available in different colours (black, yellow, red, white, blue)

Smith & Wesson - almost every model (40 pages worth)

Sphinx - Swiss improvements on the CZ75

Strayer-Voigt - M1911 based combat and competition pistols (5 pages)

Taurus - about 9 pages

Truvello - South African


So now TR my only 'Ace in the sleeve' has been revealed!


Cheers,

Kevin

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TR 11-16-2004, 01:05 PM Amongst others, it covers the following

AMT - almost all AutoMag, BackUp and Hardballer pistol types

Bernadelli - most models (about 10 IIRC)

Briley - makers of special models of the M1911

Bul - from Israel

CZ - up to the CZ produced Colt Z40

FEG - Hungarian, 9 models

Israeli Arms International - more M1911 variants

Korriphilia - high quality but limited range

Norinco - 20+ models described

Para-Ordnance - around 15 models described

Sarsilmaz - Turkish CZ75 variants, with polymer frames available in different colours (black, yellow, red, white, blue)

Smith & Wesson - almost every model (40 pages worth)

Sphinx - Swiss improvements on the CZ75

Strayer-Voigt - M1911 based combat and competition pistols (5 pages)

Taurus - about 9 pages

Truvello - South African


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm let's see...


Pretty much familiar with them all but there are some similiarities, for example: Auto Ordnance, Baer, Charles Daly, Colt, Dan Wesson, Dalask, Ed Brown, Enterprise, Firestorm, Kimber, Llama, Norinco, Para Ordnance, Peters Stahl, Rock River, Smith & Wesson, SIG Sauer & Springfield Armory all make M-1911A1 copies in various sizes and chamberings. Stats wise weights and ammunition, concealibility will change some but damage and ranges will be pretty much identicial to the other.


I think Paul covered some of the variation models more than I of course but I figuered one could get bogged down covering them all!


Good resource if you can find them in your neck of the woods would be the Gun Digest series of yearly books. Covers the newer variations and in production models so it's good for plugging the gaps for company changes and the like. Like knowing about new makers like ADCO, Detonics (back in production or soon to be), Guncrafter Industries, Mitchell Arms going back into production with their M-1911A1 designs, Pacific Armament who is importing the Argentine 9mm Browning copies in various sizes, Rhorbaugh Arms & Uselton. As well as name changes like Excel (who are producing the old Accu-Tek line of guns), mergers like Lone Star who got bought out by STI, Professional Ordnance being accquired by Bushmaster...


Later,


TR

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Twilight2000V3 11-20-2004, 07:41 PM If anyone knows a company that makes an M-1911A1 handgun in .40 S&W let me know... Im looking for one OTHER than a Kimber (way too expensive).


Max

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TR 11-20-2004, 08:42 PM Any prefrence?


Colt Defender

40 S&W - 7 round magazine

MSRP: 773.00


Firestorm (SGS Importers) Government

40 S&W - 10 round magazine

MSRP: 383.95


Llama Minimax

40 S&W - 7 round magazine

MSRP: 341.95


Para Ordnance P14-40

40 S&W - 14 round magazine

MSRP: 795.00


Para Ordnance LDA

40 S&W

MSRP: 775.00


Springfield Inc 1911A1 Standard

40 S&W - 9 round magazine

MSRP: 860.00

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pmulcahy 11-20-2004, 11:54 PM he he he... yes TR as unlikely as that sounds :smokin:

If you can find it, get the book "The Complete Encyclopedia of Pistols And Revolvers" by A. E. Hartink ISBN 90 366 1463 5

My copy was published by REBO Publishers of the Netherlands in 1996 and comes in at 448 pages. Despite being by a Dutch author and published in the Netherlands this is an English language edition.


Amongst others, it covers the following: -

AMT - almost all AutoMag, BackUp and Hardballer pistol types

Bernadelli - most models (about 10 IIRC)

Briley - makers of special models of the M1911

Bul - from Israel

CZ - up to the CZ produced Colt Z40

FEG - Hungarian, 9 models

Israeli Arms International - more M1911 variants

Korriphilia - high quality but limited range

Norinco - 20+ models described

Para-Ordnance - around 15 models described

Sarsilmaz - Turkish CZ75 variants, with polymer frames available in different colours (black, yellow, red, white, blue)

Smith & Wesson - almost every model (40 pages worth)

Sphinx - Swiss improvements on the CZ75

Strayer-Voigt - M1911 based combat and competition pistols (5 pages)

Taurus - about 9 pages

Truvello - South African


So now TR my only 'Ace in the sleeve' has been revealed!


Cheers,

Kevin


Your Ace is my Ace -- just bought that one the other day at Half-Price Books, but haven't gotten a chance to take a really good look at it yet...

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Twilight2000V3 11-27-2004, 09:47 PM Thanks for the info... I meant a commander sized in .40 S&W

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