Mass Combat Resolution

[kato13]

thefusilier 08-21-2008, 05:54 AM Hey,


What methods do you guys use to resolve combat turns involving say a platoon worth of NPCs firing on your PCs. Besides the mass combat rules in one of the modules, do you work out each NPC? Have some math formula? Use that WW3 game made by GDW? Or do you just guess?

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kcdusk 08-21-2008, 06:23 AM In my view, if you have 8 rifleman firing quick shots at extreme range, then each shot still has a 1 in 20 chance of hitting. So thats 5%. And with 8 men firing on auto etc ... odds are there will be "hits". And to me, thats not realistic. So i guess i am just saying why i wouldnt use a shot-by-shot method using the rules.


If you do use the rule above, then maybe i could accept it if you rolled for hit location, and decided that hits to legs or abdomen didnt count if the (random) PC was prone for instance. So then the hit becomes a miss. I could rationalise that.


I've tried using mass combat rules from the mods. But i couldnt get it to work. I think one of the mods i used, it referred to some text that didnt appear in my pdf.


Its been awhile since i read v2.2 rules on "beaton zone", which is a term fusiler you used in a recent ref post about incoming fire. So i dont know if saying each soldier uses spray fire/beaton zone would work better than determining individual rounds (since individual rounds should be more accurate than covering fire, have less diciplined NPCs use the less lethal covering fire. Its an advantage that generally smaller PC groups need/should have in my unbiased view).


So far i have said what i wouldnt do, so i dont know how much help that is.


Perhaps give each NPC a 5% chance of hitting a beaton zone, then having each PC in the 10m wide beaton zone need a further 1 in 6 chance of being hit at least once. Anyone not hit is "suppressed". If a particularly brave (stupid) PC decides not to take cover despite suppressing fire, i'd give their PC a 3 in 6 chance of being hit by suppressive fire.


Using the method i just thought of and described, it means each NPC needs one roll to hit (1 in 20) and then for any hits, each PC needs a D6 roll. So from a refs point of view the die rolls are minimised to some degree.

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Mohoender 08-21-2008, 06:26 AM A mix between random and situation sense or common sense as you prefer. If the player act well they reduce the effect on themselves and increase the damage on their target. A multiplyer can be affected to the general damage sometimes.

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kcdusk 08-21-2008, 06:35 AM A mix between random and situation sense or common sense as you prefer. If the player act well they reduce the effect on themselves and increase the damage on their target.


I'd allow players to reduce the effect on themselves if their PCs take defensive actions. It makes good sense, and encourages good role play in that most people take defensive action under fire, rather than have brave players make their PCs stand tall (Rambo like) while under fire.

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leonpoi 08-21-2008, 04:11 PM I use v2.2 and I use the normal rules for firing, I just have lots of 20 sides dice. At long range (1/4 to hit) I assume that troops shoot a number of SS rounds equal to their strength in recoil, which is about 2 each for rifles.

So if 20 soldiers (is that a platoon?) shoot at my pcs I roll 40 20-sides dice (which is only fine because I have 10 dice). Any hits I roll to hit as usually (again I have 10 10 sided dice) and apply misses for cover as usual. This method only works quickly because I have lots of dice. 20 people shooting is resolved in about 10 seconds which I think is ok.


For simplicity, if the same soldiers were shooting at non-pcs I'd roll 20 dice and apply 2 hits per success to speed things up. I roll for hit location as usual but use a quicker damage resolution system.


At extreme range, it's easier because they will shoot only ever other turn if they aim, or I assume that they are automatic firing, at this range 2x5 rounds = 2 dice, so same as above - but the ammo will be used up fast.


I think that the mass combat rules in the v1 modules exist because the v1 rules are more complicated and use d100 if I recall.

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Hangfire7 08-21-2008, 05:10 PM I use each and everyone of them. Of course I mass roll, computers with modern dice rollers are awesome for that.


For a platoon of say 18 firing at the PCs in say, an ambush, I will have each die represent a burst per bad guy, either full auto or five single shots per bad guy, or one if they happen to have a bolt action. I have a plethora of Mosin Nagants and Mausers around the countryside of Poland, altering the numbers found as one goes towards or away from the German Border.


Also, I usualy toss in some elite bad guys in a platoon sized group, a few veterans, unless I am feeling really evil and have the PCs encounter say a short platoon whose members are part of Polands 6th Patachute Regiment.


Also, I keep in mind that not all bad guys will be firing. If they are trained to any degree they will utilize cover and manuver plus security. And some of them won't have a field of fire or clear shot.


Some of the fire is just window dressing as some troops will fire wildly, these all get lumped into 1 roll with a low chance to hit. And it is the very unlucky member of the party who gets hit with one of these rounds.


Also, I keep in mind that in the T2K world replacement troops, ammo and medical supplies are pretty hard to comeby. I like to use some logic. Often when one side has suffered enough casualties that it is impossible to take the other they withdraw. Or that one side or the other has you out gunned, or has the terrain or position or even night vision advantage then it is futile to continue and they withdraw.


Also, I do use fire and manuever as I said. A few troops firing while they other tries to flank the PCs or vice versa, these folks usualy try to manuver quietly and without notice so they won't be firing.


Another method i use is breaking the large group into sectors. So, you have 36 bad guys attacking the PCs. You have them broken down into squads or fireteams. And each group gets so many dice representing a burst of fire from that group. Say each member of the group gets three units to fire be they full auto or semi auto bursts. then I roll for that unit, and if any of the die come up within the number I assign to hit then I roll further for who is hit and where.


Also, I use per the rules a limited number of hit points per bad guy, but I also base their casualty rate on what they are hit with and also the hit location. <I have some home rules that allow for head shots and double damage etc> An example, if a bad guy is hit in the head I usualy also roll if its a light or serious wound. And of course helmet or none. A light head would would be a graze, a serious one well it more than a graze.


If the PCs let loose with say a .50 well hits from those tend to be fatal either immediatly or shortly after, especialy in the T2K world without immediate medical attention, thus the PCs will sometimes find a wounded badguy who is not long for the earth having had a leg or arm torn off by a .50 or having his abdomen torn open and disembowled by a .50.


Also, ground zero or there about of a frag, mortar or grenade launcher round the bad guy NPCs usualy die handily. And of course if they take multiple hits they are considered killed or mortaly wounded.


As I said, it is much easier with modern die rollers where you can roll a few dozen dice at a time and it automaticaly eliminates all numbers but the ones that hit, and you can also number the die which is cool as well.


Anyhow, those are some of the things I use.

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Targan 08-21-2008, 11:44 PM What methods do you guys use to resolve combat turns involving say a platoon worth of NPCs firing on your PCs.I guess this isn't really an answer to your questions but I'd say that if there is an entire platoon of the enemy firing on a handful of PCs the PCs are dead men. Unless the enemy can't actually see them and is just guessing at where they are.

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pmulcahy 08-22-2008, 12:10 AM That depends on the size of the forces involved and the size of the battle area. If it's still relatively small (like the situation you mentioned), I may use percentages or mass rolls (I still have a program that still works exceptionally well called Dice Roll Deluxe; it cost me $5 way back when I was new to computing and still using Windows 3.1. You can even roll weird dice like a d34 or whatever.)


If things got big, I used a modified form of Last Battle (before you ask, I don't have a clue where the special rules I whipped up so long ago are right now -- though I'm doing "spring" cleaning right now, so they may still turn up -- they've been missing for years now) that adds in the new stuff I came up as well as allow for more PC/NPC actions and skills.

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Headquarters 08-22-2008, 02:47 AM I use each and everyone of them. Of course I mass roll, computers with modern dice rollers are awesome for that.


For a platoon of say 18 firing at the PCs in say, an ambush, I will have each die represent a burst per bad guy, either full auto or five single shots per bad guy, or one if they happen to have a bolt action. I have a plethora of Mosin Nagants and Mausers around the countryside of Poland, altering the numbers found as one goes towards or away from the German Border.


Also, I usualy toss in some elite bad guys in a platoon sized group, a few veterans, unless I am feeling really evil and have the PCs encounter say a short platoon whose members are part of Polands 6th Patachute Regiment.


Also, I keep in mind that not all bad guys will be firing. If they are trained to any degree they will utilize cover and manuver plus security. And some of them won't have a field of fire or clear shot.


Some of the fire is just window dressing as some troops will fire wildly, these all get lumped into 1 roll with a low chance to hit. And it is the very unlucky member of the party who gets hit with one of these rounds.


Also, I keep in mind that in the T2K world replacement troops, ammo and medical supplies are pretty hard to comeby. I like to use some logic. Often when one side has suffered enough casualties that it is impossible to take the other they withdraw. Or that one side or the other has you out gunned, or has the terrain or position or even night vision advantage then it is futile to continue and they withdraw.


Also, I do use fire and manuever as I said. A few troops firing while they other tries to flank the PCs or vice versa, these folks usualy try to manuver quietly and without notice so they won't be firing.


Another method i use is breaking the large group into sectors. So, you have 36 bad guys attacking the PCs. You have them broken down into squads or fireteams. And each group gets so many dice representing a burst of fire from that group. Say each member of the group gets three units to fire be they full auto or semi auto bursts. then I roll for that unit, and if any of the die come up within the number I assign to hit then I roll further for who is hit and where.


Also, I use per the rules a limited number of hit points per bad guy, but I also base their casualty rate on what they are hit with and also the hit location. <I have some home rules that allow for head shots and double damage etc> An example, if a bad guy is hit in the head I usualy also roll if its a light or serious wound. And of course helmet or none. A light head would would be a graze, a serious one well it more than a graze.


If the PCs let loose with say a .50 well hits from those tend to be fatal either immediatly or shortly after, especialy in the T2K world without immediate medical attention, thus the PCs will sometimes find a wounded badguy who is not long for the earth having had a leg or arm torn off by a .50 or having his abdomen torn open and disembowled by a .50.


Also, ground zero or there about of a frag, mortar or grenade launcher round the bad guy NPCs usualy die handily. And of course if they take multiple hits they are considered killed or mortaly wounded.


As I said, it is much easier with modern die rollers where you can roll a few dozen dice at a time and it automaticaly eliminates all numbers but the ones that hit, and you can also number the die which is cool as well.


Anyhow, those are some of the things I use.



got a link for some good dice rollers ?

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thefusilier 08-22-2008, 02:59 AM Thanks for the suggestions fellas. Some good ideas there. Appreciate all your responses.

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leonpoi 08-22-2008, 03:10 AM I guess this isn't really an answer to your questions but I'd say that if there is an entire platoon of the enemy firing on a handful of PCs the PCs are dead men. Unless the enemy can't actually see them and is just guessing at where they are.I would think that this is true enough.

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copeab 08-22-2008, 03:24 AM There is a mass combat system in World Tamer's handbook for TNE that should generally be compatible with T2K. OOP, though.


Even more OOP (unless you have one of the reprints) is Book 4: Mercenary for Traveller, which has a simple mass combat system that could be adapted to T2K


Finally, there is a moderately detailed mass combat system for GURPS that could, with wrangling, be used for T2K:


http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...mbat-Land.html


Brandon

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copeab 08-22-2008, 03:38 AM I guess this isn't really an answer to your questions but I'd say that if there is an entire platoon of the enemy firing on a handful of PCs the PCs are dead men. Unless the enemy can't actually see them and is just guessing at where they are.


*cough*TearsOfTheSun*cough*


Although the PCs were being fired on by a lot more than one platoon.


Brandon

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thefusilier 08-22-2008, 05:03 AM I guess this isn't really an answer to your questions but I'd say that if there is an entire platoon of the enemy firing on a handful of PCs the PCs are dead men. Unless the enemy can't actually see them and is just guessing at where they are.


Its only a dozen men at this point, at 250 meters. Suitable cover on both sides.

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simonmark6 08-22-2008, 06:53 AM I'd split them into three sections of four as I believe that military doctrine likes triangular formations.


Each section will be directed to hit one area of the opposition line depending the skill of the leader.


Then I'd decide on the unit aim,in this case I'm assuming it's to keep the opposing unit in place so other weapons/elements can be brought to bear.


Then I'd decide on how well-equipped the unit is, does it have ammo to waste on spray and pray? If it does, there'll be about 10 shots flying around in a sector a squad is covering. I'd say that PCs taking cover would have little to no chance of getting hit. The fire is trying to keep their heads down and that's what they are doing. If a PC tries to move in the "beaten zone" I'd use two of the shots to attack them hitting on a 1 for Novices, a 2 for Experienced, a 3 for veterans and a 4 for elite (or an average if it's a mixed group).


If a PC gets hit and the location is one that was in cover they're OK, if not,they've been shot.


If the squad has a machinegun, I'd double the potential attacks to 20 and up the number of potential hits to 3.


If the unit is conserving ammo, they'll be firing a mixture of shots if they are trying to suppress. I'd model it by saying that two of the four are firing fairly random quick shots to keep lead in the air. Don't worry about these shots. The other two are on opportunity fire in case anyone moves in their zone. If they do, one of the guys on overwatch will fire a single aimed shot, hitting on double the probability as the auto fire above. The problem for the unit is that the range is extreme for a Kalashnikov so aimed fire isn't that much more use than auto,apart from the conservation of ammo.


The bonus for the platoon is as long as they stay put, the PCs aren't going to do much damage unless they A) get lucky with area effect weapons or B) Expose themselves to fire. Unless the PCs have something to break the dead-lock, they'll be in trouble, running away is a good option here as the platoon facing them has a good chance of not hitting anyone as they run away.

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[kalos72]

Just thought I'd bump this some...anyone have a copy of Last Battle or a place to find one? DriveThru doesnt have it any longer.

[kato13]

I have not seen my version for a long time. I must have owned it since I recognize the maps

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/5...-twilight-2000

[kalos72]

Last Battle seems to be the favored mass combat resolution option...

[kato13]

Best I can do for you
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...ynesworldof-20

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?au...ic&st=sr&ac=qr

They all seem a bit pricey.

Personally I used a modified form of GDW's "Assault" system, for mass combat, as I was more familiar with it. Don't think it meshed quite as well with the game as last battle did (Damage rules, etc).

[kalos72]

Yeeeaaahhhhhhh....not gonna pay that. Hehe...thank you very much though. Anyone else have a copy I can check out by chance?