Securing your position...

[kalos72]

As some of you may know, my campaign that I am working on is based in NYC. Staten Island/Long Island and Manhattan specifically.

After reading all these logs about how certain divisions cant hold the area they have against marauders and that they are losing precious farm lands, it made me wonder, how do you secure your farmland when we are talking about 100-1000's of acres?

I supposes you could build a wall but with this large an area we are talking about 4-8-16 miles of wall for some. Not only that but you would need to patrol or place guard posts on those 16 miles too. Say you place one every 100yards - thats 200-300 posts - thats 600 men - for 2-3 shifts - thats 1800 men to just watch the wall.

Then the question that bothers me most, considering the area I am looking at is listed at almost half a million population according to canon, how do you defend against a swarm of 60000 people trying to run you over to take your food? Remember The Last Submarine tells tales of that happening and wiping out entire military bases.

So considering the concept of a large cantonment of military personal trying to produce food for some large population center, whats to keep that population from just saying "screw you guys" and taking what they want?

The only thing I could come up with is that perhaps if the local population knows you are there only chance then maybe they would work with you instead of against you. Or that perhaps the tales of walls of people over running a base were back when people were still localized and desperate. After a few years the local population has dwindled to only what the area can feed, if not very poorly.

I dont know... :/

[Targan]

Be prepared for anything but try to get some intel too. Random recon patrols and listening posts could be valuable tools.

[Cdnwolf]

Terror works well. Look at all these military dictators currently in power and find out how they do it. Brutalize and beat down the population... promise them food but keep it to a barely liveable amount so that they are too weak to revolt... and kidnap/recruit the strongest and promise them luxuries beyond their dreams to be on your side.

[chico20854]

There is no way to secure that much land against such large numbers in the long run. The least bad option is to farm someplace less populated. Bring food in to NYC if you need it, or else get food that doesn't need acres to produce - fish! IMHO the population of the NYC area would, by 2001, have adjusted itself to what can be grown, gathered/scavenged or traded (no mention of food imports into the NYC area, but who knows), probably at a level of less than 500k.

[fightingflamingo]

small fields might be fortified (former baseball fields, etc.). best option I can see is to actively sweep (e.g. patrol the surrounding area), and build berms around the immediate farmed site, with fighting positions around the berm... best option I think would be active patrolling a given radius around the farm to protect it and keep the unwanted away so that they would be unaware of the farms existance.

[kalos72]

So then when the 228th and CIVGOV are trying to feed the population of Maryland, how do they do it? They must have large tracts of land some where no?

Or perhaps this is where securing the region from marauders and just letting the locals worry bout farming for themselves perhaps taking a tithe of the food, turns out to be best.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by kalos72

As some of you may know, my campaign that I am working on is based in NYC. Staten Island/Long Island and Manhattan specifically.

After reading all these logs about how certain divisions cant hold the area they have against marauders and that they are losing precious farm lands, it made me wonder, how do you secure your farmland when we are talking about 100-1000's of acres?

I supposes you could build a wall but with this large an area we are talking about 4-8-16 miles of wall for some. Not only that but you would need to patrol or place guard posts on those 16 miles too. Say you place one every 100yards - thats 200-300 posts - thats 600 men - for 2-3 shifts - thats 1800 men to just watch the wall.

Then the question that bothers me most, considering the area I am looking at is listed at almost half a million population according to canon, how do you defend against a swarm of 60000 people trying to run you over to take your food? Remember The Last Submarine tells tales of that happening and wiping out entire military bases.

So considering the concept of a large cantonment of military personal trying to produce food for some large population center, whats to keep that population from just saying "screw you guys" and taking what they want?

The only thing I could come up with is that perhaps if the local population knows you are there only chance then maybe they would work with you instead of against you. Or that perhaps the tales of walls of people over running a base were back when people were still localized and desperate. After a few years the local population has dwindled to only what the area can feed, if not very poorly.

I dont know... :/

If you want create small fortified enclave that could provide surplus food, there is only one way - fishing. You should find a small island or waterfront area that you can fortify. Minefieds, walls, clear field for machineguns etc.

Israel even have tradition of "fishing kibbutzs" and usually they were located deep within hostile territory. If you cant protect fields you can always try protect small fishing harbour?

One finish module (Kööpenhaminaan) even has a "micro nation" - Lauttasaari. Fishing, trade, cottage industry and good site for keeping the hordes away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauttasaari

[kalos72]

Thats one of the reasons I am running this on Staten Island and Long Island - islands.

But you cant live on fish alone and feeding a population of 100k isnt going to work with fishing alone.

The way I am thinking, the Island combined have something like 2000 square miles of land and being both ISLANDS, relatively easy to secure.

[Cdnwolf]

Why does the movie Escape from New York or Resident Evil 2 come to mind?

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Thats one of the reasons I am running this on Staten Island and Long Island - islands.

But you cant live on fish alone and feeding a population of 100k isnt going to work with fishing alone.

The way I am thinking, the Island combined have something like 2000 square miles of land and being both ISLANDS, relatively easy to secure.

Trade? Canned fish should sell quite well in protein hungry world? Even now there is countries that cannot grow vegetables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_Iceland

[kalos72]

Besides the fact I am not sure 'canning' in the T2k world on a large level is an option, I am more interested in the idea of tactical defense.

Any other suggestion other then to just throw a wall up and put people with guns on em? Listening posts, barbed wire and such are an obvious addition to that.

[Trooper]

Some ideas about defended areas.

http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/C...llage_Defenses

[kalos72]

If anyone can find some links to information about these hamlets, all I keep getting is vague references but nothing with details.

Thanks guys...

[Legbreaker]

What Jester said and add as many patrols as you can as frequently as you can covering as far out as you can.
Keep the "enemy" at a distance at all times and give yourself time to move reserves into position if a threat is detected. Meet the "enemy" as far away as possible and don't be afraid to use deadly force to drive them back.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by kalos72

If anyone can find some links to information about these hamlets, all I keep getting is vague references but nothing with details.

Thanks guys...

This should help. And if i remember right there was Challenge mag adventure named "Westward ..." where the local sheriff had been serving in CIDG program in Vietnam.

http://www.history.army.mil/BOOKS/Vi...-23/90-23C.htm

[Ramjam]

When I lived in Cornwall about 10 years ago I sat down one weekend and tried to plan out if I was placed in the command of the defence of the village I lived in, how would I go about doing it. I came up with quite a long list of things to consider, including :

1) What man-power would I need to secure to the village.
2) What man-power would be available.
3) What ordnance would be needed and how easy would it be to obtain.
4) How available would fresh and clean drinking water be.
5) Was there any land that could be used for crops etc.
6) Was the village on a major road/rail etc (I know maybe not a major problem but there again if you don't wait everybody knowing you have a tiny piece of heaven in a world of hell).

And many more of the question already posted in previous posts.

I also considered if the village was not suitable to be secured or the man-power requirments were just to big, was there another location in the area (say within 50 miles) that could be used.

In the end I worked out that my village would be a pain to secure due to be in a open location, on a semi major road and with no local water supply (ie a river or lake etc).

But I did think about a little village down the road which was right on the coast with a tiny harbour in a quite valley. Depending on the number of people the village had to support I thought this was a much suitable and defendable location.

[Jason]

You have to have some farmers on the payroll, locals if possible, and a civilian workforce to engage in the numerous time-consuming steps needed to grow large amount of crops.

I always liked the Stout Yeomanry concept from the sample encounters section of the book. It is an example of a farm that can be found anywhere except an area that is devastated. It says an average farm consists of 20-40 hectares of land, centered on the pre-war buildings with added fortifications surrounded by an earthwork. The example in the book has 22 civilians including 13 adults. The barn, grain bins, cattle enclosure, and other animal shelters are all inside the perimeter.

Added military patrols, small contingents of soldiers, and beefed up perimeter security forces should secure most areas in non-harvest seasons, but none of that is crucial to long term sustainability.

The Greek city-states marched to war almost exclusively during Harvest Season so they could seize or destroy each others grain reserves. Their three staples were wine, wheat, and olive oil, and it turns out that grape vines and olive trees are hardy enough to survive a quick burn, and also resist being harvested quickly. Wheat on the other hand, is easily harvested by anyone with basic tools, can be trampled by horses or be burned down with ease.

Post-apoc crops are going to consist of wheat/corn/soy, potatoes/yams, and vegetables/fruits. Similar to modern America, there will be a Harvest Season, and that is when every marauder scum from 3 counties will be menacing the farmland. It is going to take a concentrated military force and a large civilian workforce to get in a significant amount of those crops.

A smart military commander would make/get a detailed survey of all the farmland in question. There are going to be numerous creeks, irrigation ditches, rivers, lakes, marshes, etc, that will make great natural barriers. Any farmland out side this broad natural perimeter gets scrapped, and the farm families in those areas are given support to move inside the secured area.

Next, enhance those natural barriers, build new barriers where they are needed, set up check-points on all roads (or better yet just blow the bridges), add listening post on your most vulnerable approaches and train up some CIDG. Now, some strong outposts are needed. Convert a handful of small towns/villages into fortifications if available (much easier), otherwise some type of fortifications should be built. These need earthworks that are high and wide, and several reinforced strongholds inside (potentially huge project).

Come harvest time, you are going to need troops to guard your civilian workers, and several rapid reaction forces. Use the CIDG to free up your least vulnerable garrison troops. The Rapid Reaction Groups (RRGs) will the key to defeating a determined attack by an either an organized marauder group, or a huge mass of starving humanity. The RRG’s need to be fast enough to get around your defended farmland and well armed and trained so they can meet multiple threats. Did you A-team some busses and boats? You did secure those old junkyards right?

Ok, there are two credible threats, the Marauders and the Starving masses. Expect marauders to be very clever; maybe they have a train, or an old steam tugboat, or some Mad Max semi’s, or a howitzer, that they use to project force. Marauders in T2K usually have some means of carrying away their booty, and a large-scale raid must be supported. Your RRG’s need some kind of hammers, like anti-tank weapons to pound those toys into fiery masses of negative morale modifiers on the evil invaders. You also need some snipers to pick off the leadership elements. They hate when you do that. Clever Marauders will also try everything to infiltrate your workforce. Better get some Secret Police.

If the Starving Mass of Humanity were clever, it wouldn’t exist. Human wave attacks are not unheard of in T2K, so you might as well knock together some quad 50’s, and keep those M214 6-pac’s greased up and very well supplied with ammo. No one wants to mow down thousands of pitiful civilians, but if they are coming right at you like that, what are you going to do?

Worst case scenario in either attack is that all the crops are burned/destroyed in the fighting or out of spite, so you need multiple RRG’s that can hit very hard individually, or be used as a group as needed. Enemies large enough to attack your agricultural base will usually back down after suffering serious losses in a concentrated counter-attack.

So, do you have the resources to secure, establish, maintain, and defend a fortified agricultural base that is large enough to sustain itself?

[weswood]

Probably been said before but:

Fire bases spread around the perimeter, close together as pssible depending on manpower.

Aggressive search and destroy patrols.

Small recon patrols further out from the village.

Farm workers given basic training and firearms, required to carry weapons while working fields.