The State of Other Armies in the Late Twilight War

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I agree wholeheartedly about the desertion issue as described by sglancy. I'd even go so far as to extend the arguement to cover Soviet troops in Poland - Home is a VERY long walk away through terrain absolutely crawling with marauders and rear eschelon units just waiting to pounce upon deserters.

As much as I wanted to get into these issued I thought perhaps they warranted their own thread. I think Raellus did an excellent job covering the state of the US Armed Forces overseas (particularly in Europe), and I wasn't sure I wanted to muddle his thread with discussions about other national armed forces.

But first of all I have to point out what an ungrateful bastard I am for turning around and disagreeing (at least partially) with Legbreaker after he so graciously agreed with me.

I believe that since Soviet troops can walk home (no matter how far it may be) they are are more likely to desert than US troops who can't get home without crossing huge expanses of ocean.

While it is a long way from Lublin to Moscow, I don't think it's the distance that dissuades them from deserting. I think it's all those KGB and MVD troops in the rear who have nothing better to do than police up Red Army deserters and shoot them. The US Army in WWII executed one soldier for desertion... the Red Army may have executed as many as 158,000 troops for desertion... of course Smokin' Joe Stalin considered surrendering the same as desertion and any liberated prisoners were sent to penal battalion or Siberian Gulags. No doubt that brutal reputation was well deployed during the Twilight War to discourage desertion.

What happens instead is that individual Soviet soldiers do not commonly desert. Instead whole units mutiny. They want to get home, but they know they need the firepower to brush aside those KGB border guards and MVD internal defense troops. Sometimes the mutiny engenders a complete breakdown of order and the unit breaks up. But not every time. In the TW2K time lines the Soviets have a real problem with low category divisions raised in a particular geographic area, mutinying and trying to return to the region from where they were raised. If everyone is from the Kiev area, then the mutinous troops can move as a group to get everyone back to their home towns and families.

Certainly though when a unit mutinies, not everyone is keen on the idea of the long march back to Smolensk (or wherever they are from). Some may still be loyal communists. Others may simply not have approved of the violence of the mutiny if certain officers were murdered in the process. Some may not want to risk the KGB reprisals or perhaps they prefer the relative safety of a Red Army unit in cantonment. What happens to those members of the unit who didn't participate in the mutiny but find themselves without a legal command structure to answer to? Well, I guess they desert from the mutinous unit and try to find there way to friendly forces... of course, with the Red Army, that might be easier said than done.

With political officers looking over their shoulders, many Red Army commanders might be hard pressed not to brutalize or execute deserters who voluntarily return to Red Army units. While the Red Army commander is probably happy for any manpower he can police up, there's a good chance that the Kremlin issued some wasteful and brutal orders concerning the disposal of "traitors" at the front. If he doesn't execute all "traitors" he might be declared one himself. On the other hand, if his Zampolit isn't a total fanatic, and is capable of understanding that the war is thinning the Red Army fast enough without accelerating the destructing with endless executions, maybe individual commanders would be able to reabsorb "stragglers" as they saw fit.

However, considering the brutal hazing in the Red Army at the best of times, I'm imagining a nasty reception for any troops rejoining the Red Army. At the bare minimum they might be forced to run the gauntlet: where the until lines up and the soldier petitioning to return to duty is subjected to a beating where everyone hits him once. Hopefully they'll only beat him with the flats of their leather belts and not rifle butts or boot heels.

Worse case scenario, returning deserters could be placed in a penal squad. When the squad's numbers get above ten, the unit is decimated. That is, one returning deserter is selected and shot as an example to everyone else about deserting. In order to bind the other returned deserters to the Red Army unit, they might very well have to select the soldier to be made an example of and even be forced to carry out the execution.

Hey, the Red Army has a reputation for brutality that is not undeserved.

Does anybody else have any thoughts on this? Especially for ways that Soviet commanders at the front could balance their operational needs with the unrealistic orders coming from the Kremlin.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

What happens instead is that individual Soviet soldiers do not commonly desert.

They do.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

They do.

Let me make myself clearer.

I am speaking only to the late Twilight War after the nuclear exchanges. Before for the nukes fly I imagine that the Soviets have a very high desertion rate. Once the nuclear exchange has started, the average Soviet serviceman is faced with the same problem that most servicemen have: "Where am I going to desert to?"

With society in ruins there is a greater chance of avoiding the Soviet security apparatus, or at least the KGB and MVD become a more localized threat, incapable of coordinating their manhunts over large areas. On the other hand, with society in ruins, any single individual moving east away from the front is going to stick out even more. There would be fewer and fewer communities to blend into.

That's also why I see Soviet units suffering a higher rate of mutiny. Rather than chance deserting alone, dissatisfaction in the unit builds until the mutineers are confident that they can seize control and take the entire unit out of the line with the intention of going home. With low readiness category divisions raised in particular geographic areas, this makes the mutineers job even easier because they everyone in the division (mostly) has the same destination in mind. They can travel as a group, with all the advantages and disadvantages that implies, rather than break up into tiny groups all heading to different destinations.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Raellus]

I think desertion is key to supporting the various local Polish ORMO "militias" described in canon.

From discussions with a former Polish Army soldier (post Cold War), I take it that the actual Cold War ORMO was a very small organization. They were not generally armed with military grade weapons, if they were armed at all. This person is of the opinion that the Communist Polish government would never have considered arming civilians. Besides, most able-bodied males would have been conscripted into the Polish Army once the war was in full swing.

The only explanation for the number and strength of local militias, in my mind, is that thousands of Polish soldiers deserted- likely after the nuclear exchanges were well under way- with their weapons, returned home, and formed the cadres for the various local militias described in canon.

Polish troops- especially wartime conscripts- would have ample cause and opportunity to desert.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think desertion is key to supporting the various local Polish ORMO "militias" described in canon.

The only explanation for the number and strength of local militias, in my mind, is that thousands of Polish soldiers deserted- likely after the nuclear exchanges were well under way- with their weapons, returned home, and formed the cadres for the various local militias described in canon.

Polish troops- especially wartime conscripts- would have ample cause and opportunity to desert.

I could not agree more. I also think that this would be a similar problem for every other military engaged in hostilities close to or within their national borders. The Poles, the Czechs, the Hungarians, the Germans, the Dutch, the Danes, the Norwegians, the Austrians, Italians, etc... all these armies must have had huge problems with desertion following the nuclear exchange.

Only the UK would have a lower rate of desertion for no other reason than there's that inconvenient moat around the country that prevents the average Tommy from just walking home to look after his family. Besides, with the BAOR making an organized (albeit slow) withdrawal back to Blighty, why paddle across in a rowboat only to face charges of desertion?

Most community militias west of the Rhine would be bolstered by deserters, quite often veterans, who have simply decided to look after their own until things get back on track. They're not necessarily going to be separatists or even disloyal to the remnants of the pre-war government, but they have adopted a different set of "mission priorities."

I'm particularly thinking of the Germans and Austrians here. I think the main thing keeping the German army together is the presence of Soviet and Czech troops in their territory. The moment the Soviets withdraw, those German units are going to start hemorrhaging personnel.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Legbreaker]

Distance from home and the ease of getting there will be very important factors in desertion. As has already been mentioned, US troops in Europe are likely to have a low desertion rate while those units within the US are likely to be nearly haemorrhaging soldiers.

The same goes for the Soviets in Alaska, not to mention Division Cuba. Soldiers are much more likely to remain with the military organisation than attempt to head out on their own.

There will of course be exceptions to this general rule. It is quite possible individuals and small groups of a few disaffected soldiers will desert in a foreign land and become marauders, or even switch sides completely, but these will be relatively rare.

However, even if a unit is located within their national boundaries, many soldiers may choose to stay with the unit. It is much more likely that these nationalities have had the chance to find out the situation at home and may even be in fairly regular contact. It could be that by staying in the military they are able to assist their families (or what's left of them) by sending money (if it's still got any value) or even food and clothing parcels. It might even be in the Army's best interest to provide such packages to soldiers, even supplying the transportation for them back to their families - a bit like a reverse care package.

A happy soldier unworried about their loved ones is after all much more likely to stick around than one who's family is starving, in danger, sick, etc.