Sniper teams

[copeab]

Originally, snipers acted alone. Then some had a spotter added, who also provided a little security. A few added a third member, a radio operator.

It appears that this has now bloated to a seemingly unwieldy _six_ man sniper team (sniper, spotter, radio operator, point man and two security). A lot of this bloat appears to be from the mission of the sniper being expanded from simply sneaking into enemy territory, killing a high value target at rifle range, then sneaking away, to including recon and forward observer duties (and possibly others). However, instead of three two-man teams each with one mission, you have one large team with multiple missions. It just seems to me the larger size would make it easier to detect the team, eliminating the benefits of "safety in numbers". OTOH, a six-man team seems to be a perfect size for most parties.

So, thoughts?

[Ramjam]

A six-man sniper team does sound a bit over the top to me.

They, as you said, are meant to sneak in, pop off their target and sneak out. Secondary to that role is to do recce work, but with six guys you are making the chance to be discovered three times more likely.

Hell that's why most reece teams only work in 4 man teams and that's due to the equipment that might need to cover if they are setting up a op etc.

[Eddie]

What's more important to you? Three two man teams that get killed because they can't secure themselves, or one six-man element that gets spotted every now and then but comes home after the mission is complete?

That's what the brass had to look at. Although, I've not heard of a six man team going out on a regular basis. Normally, it's the three man team, occassionally an entire section will go out (10-men).

It's based more on the security level in the AO and the necessary amount of coverage needed by the element the snipers are supporting.

As to recce team size, every nation is different. Our standard scout team size is six men (and I think the Marines follow that standard as well). LRS units have 6-8 depending on LRSD or LRSC. This excludes SOF, of course. Certain SOF elements go out in as little as one or two men up to whatever is needed.

[HorseSoldier]

six man teams are for a different mission (or at least a different style of sniping) and for operations in urban terrain where you are guaranteed to be detected, at least by civilians (whose loyalties are variable) if not by the bad guys. a lot of sniper work intheater these days is not about sneaing in and shooting one guy and leaving, it's about owning a good position and interdicting any bad guys trying to run theougj the engagement area.

[Adm.Lee]

I once found a RAND study of LRRP operations in Vietnam (it blew my mind that I would just find it sitting on the shelf of my small callege library). It found that 6 was just about the optimum number of a team. I immediately thought that would work out great for RPGs. Of course, that was for jungle reconnaissance, which didn't mean sniping very often. That number allowed them enough manpower to set watches and ambushes, while being able to watch all around them.

The 6-person model works rather well if you swap in a light MG's 2-man crew for the sniper pair, as well.

Now that I think on it, I've almost never had anyone play the spotter in a game. Usually, someone will want the sniper rifle, but they rarely set up to do anything special with it.

[jester]

The size of the team will be dictated by:

Mission
Enviroment
Target
Resources Available

Those are all factors. As was said about urban, the traditional "hide" doesn't exist, so you need folks to secure your six and flanks, as well as relay info of what is going on.

Remember, a mission of a sniper is not just to shoot, but to know when to shoot and when not to shoot. Do you shoot and let them know you are there, disperse them, but hey, you took out 1 guy, or observe and report it to higher HQ who can send in a platoon and nail all of them? And then do it again and again as you have eyes on one of their "routes."

Back in the day, we also used the man portable radar as well, and those took a team larger than the sniper team. Same when we introduced the .50 cal sniper rifle, the team increased to three or four men as well.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I once found a RAND study of LRRP operations in Vietnam (it blew my mind that I would just find it sitting on the shelf of my small callege library). It found that 6 was just about the optimum number of a team. I immediately thought that would work out great for RPGs. Of course, that was for jungle reconnaissance, which didn't mean sniping very often. That number allowed them enough manpower to set watches and ambushes, while being able to watch all around them.

When it comes to recon, six seems to be the magic number. Vietnam LRRP teams usually went out into the bush in 6-man elements, SOG recon teams 4-6, and SEAL teams around 7. Rhodesian Selous scouts also usually went out in in teams of 5-6 but frequently operated in pairs.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Now that I think on it, I've almost never had anyone play the spotter in a game. Usually, someone will want the sniper rifle, but they rarely set up to do anything special with it.

The Hollywood of it is snipers are cool, but in reality the spotter needs to be at least as skilled a shooter, since besides target detection he's also the one making wind calls and the other real technical aspects of sniping. (Or as one SOTIC instructor in my old unit put it, you can teach ani chimp to pull the trigger in a week, competent spotters are much, much harder to train.)

In game terms for long range work, the shot should really be based on a blend of shooter and spotter's skill levels, probably weighted 2/3 spotter 1/3 shooter.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I once found a RAND study of LRRP operations in Vietnam (it blew my mind that I would just find it sitting on the shelf of my small callege library). It found that 6 was just about the optimum number of a team. I immediately thought that would work out great for RPGs. Of course, that was for jungle reconnaissance, which didn't mean sniping very often. That number allowed them enough manpower to set watches and ambushes, while being able to watch all around them.

The 6-person model works rather well if you swap in a light MG's 2-man crew for the sniper pair, as well.

Now that I think on it, I've almost never had anyone play the spotter in a game. Usually, someone will want the sniper rifle, but they rarely set up to do anything special with it.

Back to scout teams, you don't really want to integrate a sniper team into your scout team if you have the choice. Or a machinegun team. That's not the purpose of a scout team.

If you make contact as a scout, you don't want to do the Navy SEAL thing and just shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot...well, you get the drift. You want to break contact and put terrain between you and the people shooting at you. Call in arty or mortars. Maybe some CCA. That was how we did it back in my enlisted days. Whatever it is, you want to shoot other peoples' bullets first, though.

For team makeup, you want a Team Leader, an Assistant team leader, an RTO, a Senior Observer and then two other observers. In all truthfulness though, the observers could really be renamed security. That's the role they normally fill.

Your heaviest weapons should be grenade launchers. Anything else, and you just weigh yourself down and make it harder to break contact.

Caveat: This is for infantry scouts. Cav Scouts do their own thing and I don't profess to fathom or agree/disagree with it.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by copeab

OTOH, a six-man team seems to be a perfect size for most parties.

So, thoughts?

Easy. Do you have 1, 2, 4 or 6 players? I think thats what determines your party size.

Then you can determine, or they can decide, what there mission or actions are.

Personally, i'd go with up to 4 regular players/posters than a larger group of 6 where you have passengers.

[copeab]

Okay, so a six-man team isn't that stealthy because it's not supposed to be that stealthy (at least relative to, say, a one or two man team) because it just doesn't have the same mission as a two-man team (where stealth may the the most important thing) ?

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by copeab

Okay, so a six-man team isn't that stealthy because it's not supposed to be that stealthy (at least relative to, say, a one or two man team) because it just doesn't have the same mission as a two-man team (where stealth may the the most important thing) ?

Yeah, basically. The big team is the right tool for some current missions in urban terrain especially. don't know that it would be a common organization in the T2K game world where population densities are lower and military attitudes towards civilian populations are different.

[Abbott Shaull]

A six man sniper team seems a bit bloated but take in consideration operational conditions it not surprising. I was surprise that they didn't have such large teams assigned to Europe, but I am sure the learning curve would of pointed this out real quickly. I can still see in some circumstances where the sniper and spotter will operate well in advance of the rest of team. Mainly for stealth, the team move a point where the rest of team provide security while the sniper and spotter move stealthy to take out their target and move back. On the plus side, if the team happen to make a chance contact to or from this point it has more of chance of breaking contact.

It is one of the things that the Marine Snipers teams were/are suppose to act as scout too, so bring the team to 6 members makes sense. Not the most profitable use of a sniper team, but hey use your asset economically.

On the other hand in the t2k world. With everything in the hand basket, most teams would be used sniper/scout roles. Which could lead to an element having a 6 man team, like I said that at least in Europe many teams would be bloated due the number of built up areas the fighting would have taken place at. For the most part I still see many of the sniper teams being down to 2 men. I do see at the squad level or platoon level having a designated marksmen with battle rifles instead of the standard assault rifle/carbine.

Just some thoughts.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

On the other hand in the t2k world. With everything in the hand basket, most teams would be used sniper/scout roles. Which could lead to an element having a 6 man team, like I said that at least in Europe many teams would be bloated due the number of built up areas the fighting would have taken place at. For the most part I still see many of the sniper teams being down to 2 men. I do see at the squad level or platoon level having a designated marksmen with battle rifles instead of the standard assault rifle/carbine.

Just some thoughts.

With radios scarce and fire support less responsive most places I could see two man sniper teams being kept closer to supporting units, or if sniper teams are being sent out making them bigger in the T2K world.

DMRs are probably something that people want circa 2000, though I'm not sure how much motivation there'd be for fielding them during the pre-nuclear phase of the war most places. In a lot of conventional fights, a Bradley's 25mm and similar weapons can cover DMR tasks for mechanized units.

When that sort of firepower dwindling after the nuclear exchange, and conventional fighting being increasingly supplemented with low intensity operations against marauders, partisans and whatnot, I can see DMRs becoming a higher value item. What form that would take for US troops with supply lines disrupted is an interesting question -- some of the last drafts of troops arriving from the US might have been at least partially equipped with M14s, so maybe some of those get pressed into the DMR role, perhaps with locally copied versions of the M21 scope mounting system, or pieces of rail allowing use of whatever number of ACOGs were available in theater, etc.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Personally, i'd go with up to 4 regular players/posters than a larger group of 6 where you have passengers.

I have no problem running NPCs with a party, so using NPCs to fill out a team is no big deal to me. However, if I start getting too attached to a regular (rather than recurring) NPC, it's time for the NPC to leave or die.