Possibly the best sniper ?

[General Pain]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Hayha

[Muti]

Yes, it's him

http://www.snipercentral.com/snipers.htm

[Eddie]

I always hate claims like this for one simple reason.

It's inaccurate to label someone "the best" because they operated in the most target rich environment ever.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I always hate claims like this for one simple reason.

It's inaccurate to label someone "the best" because they operated in the most target rich environment ever.

At what point do you stop discounting a sniper's accomplishments then? If you don't consider the sniper with the highest kill total the best, how do you determine the best? Remember Simo was using a standard-issue rifle without a scope and without benefit of a spotter -- and he did it all in 100 days. It's not his fault he made the best of the situation.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by copeab

At what point do you stop discounting a sniper's accomplishments then? If you don't consider the sniper with the highest kill total the best, how do you determine the best? Remember Simo was using a standard-issue rifle without a scope and without benefit of a spotter -- and he did it all in 100 days. It's not his fault he made the best of the situation.

Read through Jester's reply. You could add in the ability to get a consistent sight picture, grouping size, any number of other metrics besides a target is up, now it's down.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Read through Jester's reply. You could add in the ability to get a consistent sight picture, grouping size, any number of other metrics besides a target is up, now it's down.

In the end, all that really matters is "sniper kills target, sniper gets away to kill another target".

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by General Pain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Hayha

Possibly.

But I am skeptical to the accuracy of the claims. Not saying he wasn't very successful, but it isn't unheard of for nations to inflate things to create heroes. The references don't help confirm anything either, with most of them being news or television outlets (which also include contradictory information).

[jester]

Read it before and other accounts as well. I do wonder what if any role he had in the "Continuation War?"

And then the label of "BEST" it all depends on what criteria is being used for that label. Just like the discussion of "ELITE." If you are going by sheet numbers okay. Or, what about shooting ability long or difficult shots? Or infiltration to very secure areas to make the shot? Or stalking the target until you can make the shot? There are so many criteria that can be considered. Just like the game, alot of the players who have no clue think its just a high rifle score. To be a good sniper takes intelligence as well as a shooting ability and then you learn lots and lots of fieldcraft.

I mean, some countries or organizations call people who are snipers because they sit on a tower or atop a building and can put a round through the bullseye with a long barreled custom rifle and glass. Other organizations, it is about camo, stalking and the ability to shoot. I guess what I am saying is, its more than just having the skill pulling a trigger from my perspective.

So, what is the criteria for the best, that is the thing to decide.

In that case, the guy was a good shot and had a good amount of fieldcraft due to his background, <it seems similiar to a couple other snipers I have read too> But one also must admit, not only was that time and conflict one where it was target rich. Really, there were cases of units not having enough rifles or ammo for all its personel. But also, the Russians were from many of the accounts I have read well, words like bumbling and incompetent could be used. It was really just by sheer weight of numbers that they prevailed....oh yeah, and the complete failure of the league of nations and the betrayal of the European Powers at that era of history to do anything to stop expansionism by two certain nations of Europe.

[Trooper]

To be honest Simo Häyhä is not famous in Finland. Finish army didn’t like idea of “kills” and snipers were not popular heroes during WW II. There wasn’t even an official training for snipers before 1940. Häyhä was member of civil guard where he received some crude training for sniping and he was also local rifle champion. He also didn’t have any career at military. Before winter 39/40 he was an farmer and reserve corporal like so many other men in Finland.

Häyhä evaded nearly certain death at several occasions and there were fierce battles at Kollaa front. Russian had proper equipment and armament but they were poorly lead. There is even finish saying “Kollaa kestää” – meaning something like “we will not give up”.

[HorseSoldier]

"Best" is always a topic that invites hair splitting and such. Guy was definitely hard as a coffin nail and someone I'd rather have on my side than the other one, though.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by jester

Read it before and other accounts as well. I do wonder what if any role he had in the "Continuation War?"

It's my understanding he never saw action after getting shot in the face -- which I can forgive him for

And then the label of "BEST" it all depends on what criteria is being used for that label. Just like the discussion of "ELITE." If you are going by sheet numbers okay. Or, what about shooting ability long or difficult shots? Or infiltration to very secure areas to make the shot? Or stalking the target until you can make the shot? There are so many criteria that can be considered. Just like the game, alot of the players who have no clue think its just a high rifle score. To be a good sniper takes intelligence as well as a shooting ability and then you learn lots and lots of fieldcraft.

In threads on creating a sniper in other game systems, I've argued that Stealth and Camouflage are slightly more important to a military sniper than Rifle (a police sniper is a different matter).

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Possibly.

But I am skeptical to the accuracy of the claims. Not saying he wasn't very successful, but it isn't unheard of for nations to inflate things to create heroes. The references don't help confirm anything either, with most of them being news or television outlets (which also include contradictory information).

I'm skeptical too. Alot of these numbers seem very unlikely. I mean who is to say snipers can't lie a little. Do you know for sure the guy you shot is dead? I mean I bet the russian that shot Simo in the face thought he was dead. Until you can walk up and check the body or their head got ripped off, it's unconfirmed in my opion. In the heat of battle how the hell do you really keep a accurate tally? I'm really skeptical when it comes to the high numbers of kills made by russian snipers in WW2, they needed all the good press they could get. These numbers just seem a little to high.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think some of the problem here may be with the way the term "sniper" has changed over the years. Once upon a time, what was called a sniper at the time was for the most part simply a highly-skilled marksman -- someone who could put a bullet through your eye consistently at 1000 meters or suchlike.

Nowdays, being a sniper is a profession -- it is a person with a specific skills set not only in marksmanship, but in camouflage, fieldcraft, reconnaissance and observation, discerning high-value targets, and most importantly, not being caught in the act. He's also a technician as much as a shooter, adept with a wide variety of weapons, optics, and observation and designation devices.

By the definition of older times (sometime during World War 2, it seems, is when the definition started to change), a modern sniper would be considered a special ops soldier. Now, a sniper is a more highly-skilled subset of an infantryman, unless he is actually assigned to a special ops unit and has that special training as per that unit. The kind of soldier that was once termed a sniper would be now termed as more a Designated Marksman or suchlike. By today's terms, Simo Häyhä is simply a highly-skilled marksman. By the terms of his day, he was a sniper.

[copeab]

Oddly enough, this reminds me of arguments over who is the best athlete in a certain sport when the players were in quite different era. Baseball is the best (worst) at this inventing many statistics to allow cross-era comparisons (which generally fail).

So, due to the evolution of sniper training and equipment, I'll revise my position and say you simply can't claim anyone is an overall "best sniper". Simo was probably the best for his era (say, WWI through Korea), though.