Captured Vehicles & Battlefield Recognition Symbols

[weswood]

Your squad managed to escape Kaliz on foot. Now, several days later, you've managed to capture a Soviet BTR-80. You know there's both Warsaw Pact forces and the remnants of the 5th ID in the area. Do you:

[copeab]

Abandon the vehicle.

Whichever sides color you display on the vehicle, the other will be the first you run into. If you display no colors, you'll run into both sides, each which assume you are on the other side. Whoever fires on you will have an AT weapon capable of destroying the vehicle.

Better to go on foot.

If I had to keep the vehicle, I'd go with no insignia on the vehicle at all.

[Dog 6]

Keep it marked as Soviet and put a US flag you could yank down quick if needed

[Raellus]

Good question, Wes.

Since both sides would likely be using any vehicle they could get their hands on, including captured enemy vehicles, I think friend vs. foe recognition in the year 2000 would be a painfully complicated process. I'm sure both sides going into the Battle of Kalisz would have a few former enemy vehicles on their books.

Would folks shoot first and ask questions later? Would they be extra cautious in the attempt to avoid a blue on blue incident? I don't know. I just read Kill Bin Laden and the Delta guys called off several airstrikes because they couldn't tell if their targets were friendly Muj or AQ. Not even their Afghan allies could tell themselves apart from the enemy at anything over 100m.

Personally, I think I would be tempted to leave the BTR- or, for that matter, any vehicle, NATO or WTO- and E&E on foot, nice and sneaky like.

[pmulcahy11b]

I took "Take the BTR and keep marked as Soviet," but on second thought, I think it might be better to mark it as American (or whatever nationality the PCs are), simply because death by fratricide is more tragic than death by enemy action. By no means, however, would I simply reject an intact vehicle by that stage of the game (no pun intended), unless it had little or no fuel or is in such horrible Wear condition that it's likely to break down any moment.

[helbent4]

The following presumes none of the previously mentioned in-game factors (wear, fuel) and metagame concerns (the GM will automatically screw you as soon as possible merely on principle) are present.

To a large degree, the answer depends on where you're going, what your supply situation is like, what the local threats are and where they are located, and so on. By summer 2000, captured vehicles were common so that's less of an issue, or rather, it's something so common different forces have experience in dealing with this problem.

If you have a short distance to go and are sneaking through enemy lines, then traveling by foot is sufficient. In a couple days you're going to be safe and can hypothetically resupply.

If you have a significant distance to travel, then vehicle travel is probably worth the risk. Assuming the idea is to make a run for Krakow in as few bounds as possible, then pursue some means of future sustenance, a vehicle allows for more flexibility in future operations. A large vehicle like the BTR can serve as a mobile base of operations, provide fire support, is a means to move salvage, etc.

Tony

[weswood]

Main reason I asked is I'm thinking of starting the 2nd chapter of the story I started in the Creative Writing section of the forums. The group consists of 5 US soldiers, 1 embeded reporter. Before they can capture the BTR, the only transport they have is a 1/2 ton pickup that's older than any of the characters.

My timeline is based on v1, but slightly different. I moved the general mayhem of nukes back a couple years, the Thanksgiving Day Massacre didn't happen until 1999. Most of the characters were in troop ships on their way to Europe at that time.

They never actualy made it to Kaliz, the convoy they were part of was ambushed before they made it. They'll start in the town of Milicz, about 75-80 klicks southwest of Kaliz.

Funny thing is I picked Milicz pretty much at random. I set up a Soviet patrol basing itself in som old castle ruins just outside of town. I looked the town on the internet and there really is a castle ruins outside the town. Pure serendipity.

[Raellus]

OK, more specifically, does canon specify how MilGov and CivGov units in CONUS recognize blue and op-forces? I don't recall this being mentioned in any of the modules that I'm familiar with. I'm assuming that they're still flying the same [50] Stars and [13] Stripes. Are other flags in use? IIRC, the U.S. Army Vehicle guide shows both factions using the same black star device painted on AFVs and the like. Does canon mention any other recognition devices?

Along the same lines, in Europe, with so much mixing and matching of weapons, uniforms, and vehicles, how do units recognize friend or foe? Brassards, helmet bands, vehicle markings? Given the materials available, seems like there wouldn't be that many distinct variations that could be seen and/or recognized from a distance. Seems to me that IFF would become extremely dicey.

I'm sure this is come up before but I don't think we've ever had a thread dedicated to this topic. I'd like to read your thoughts on this subject.

[Targan]

It's only my opinion, but I think MilGov and CivGov would both seek to use flags, markings and symbols as close to pre-war standard as possible. Both claim to be the legitimate government, therefore both would tend to use the regulation pre-war symbols and markings to enhance their legitimacy while at the same time avoid introducing new/non-standard symbols and markings for fear that something new might be viewed as illegitimate. There is power in symbols, no small part of which is derived from their history.

[Rainbow Six]

I agree 100% with Targan. I think one of the cornerstones of both Milgov and Civgov's claim to be the legitimate Government of the United States would be to continue to use all the pre War symbols, especially the US flag, without any modification whatsoever. I'd say any side that did modify the flag in any way, shape, or form would be handing the other side a massive propaganda coup.

[pmulcahy11b]

And it's rife with opportunities for a GM's exploitation of the mistakes caused by those common symbols.

[stormlion1]

OK, its nice that both Governments are claiming to be the legitimate and will probably order there symbols to remain as they are, but for the troops in the field I can see little things being added to there equipment to allow for ID on the field. Flags on antennas, Striped Paint on barrels or chassis. Little things like that would be what the troops in the field might add to help recognition.