The Military Deployments of T2K

[dragoon500ly]

Like to throw out a couple of thoughts...

Does anyone else find the deployments of some of the powers to be, well, more than a little odd? For example, the 6th Light Infantry Division was formed to be the garrison for Alaska with the secondary mission of reinforcing Korea. And yet GDW has the division in Central Europe. A division trained for artic/mountain warfare in the Central German Plain?

Ditto for the 10th Mountain Division. When this division was formed, its mission was to serve as the main reinforcement for Norway and yet it winds up on the Pacific Northwest...

The 40th Mechanized Infantry Division is a CA-NG division with no NATO mission, in fact it was always considered to be a reinforcement for the Persian Gulf...And while the RDF of one airborne, one air assault, one motorized, one mechanized and two marine divisions, is a powerful force. It is sadly lacking in offensive punch, especially with the task of securing a major oil reserve. Its only NATO reinforcement is an ad-hoc British/Gurkha brigade that lacks most of the attachments that a brigade would bring with it.

Considering that the Persian Gulf would provide a majority of the oil products used by NATO, one wonders if a larger commitment of troops to the gulf would be a more reasonable decision.

[Adm.Lee]

Didn't the 6th LID go to Norway first, and then to Germany? I'm thinking that was after the Norwegian front was closed down by the US, and mountain/winter experienced troops could work in Austria.

[Abbott Shaull]

Oddly I can see one Brigade of the 6th Light being sent to Norway to bring the 10th Mountain to full strength. Then with the 1 combat brigade and rest of the divisional support it would stay in Alaska where it would go and form up it other two combat Brigades as troops became ready. Of course during the time they would get raided for troops for Korea.

The 10th after emergency in Norway was finish would either move Germany in place of the 6th Light, more likely sent to the Middle East. Yeah I know what the XVIII Airborne Corps needs another damn light unit. Yet, the 10th and 24th were odd divisions. In that they both had round out units, assigned to XVIII Airborne Corps which was basically the mains stay of the Army Central Command components. The 10th also had the mission for Norway while the 24th could of been shifted to Europe easy enough too.

Yeah I alway thought the 40th Mechanized would of ended up in Korea or Middle East depending on when they shipped out. Then again there were plenty of Separate Brigade they could of pieced together a couple Heavy Divisions for the Middle East.

Would there be another 23rd Infantry Division reformed again? Take 194th Armor Brigade, 197th Mechanized Brigade, remains of the Berlin Brigade, and the Airborne Task Force out Italy...anyone...

Another problem I have is lack of the 29th Light Infantry and sending of the 26th Light Infantry to Korea. I think they would of both probably been sent to Europe via Norway.

Would the 28th Infantry Division deploy as Medium Division or Heavy Division?

Then here are several Division of National Guard units that one could play where is Waldo with. I mean would it be the 49th Armor Division or 36th Mechanized Division. 34th Infantry or 47th Infantry Division. Would it be the 50th Armor Division or 27th Infantry Division.

Then several Brigades that are the remains of former National Guard Divisions. Speaking of the Separated Brigades and lack of Divisional HQs. Would the former Regimental Combat Teams be raised as new Brigade Combat Team that would be sent to various regions to reinforcement at Army and Corps level?

Then throw in all the former Reserve units that would be reforming too.

Next would the Round Out Brigades make it to the dance with their Division or would have the Pentagon came to it senses and rush to re-organize things? I mean in some cases there are some Division that had 10 Battalions of Armor, and various Infantry types. Would they be pared down to 9 Battalions with the other Battalions used to bring up other units that were short.

Would the Army come up with Units of Action concept due to losses, instead of lack of wanting to increase the military force? Would they add 4th and 5th combat brigades to Divisions in some theaters and with others in certain area shrink them?

There are so many what ifs and not enough time to truly explore them...lol

[HorseSoldier]

GDW screwed up on 6th ID and 10th Motown in various ways, though I think part of that was bad info (I assume that's why both division's round out components are elsewhere in the US OOB according to GDW, even though they mention both having roundout units).

Keep in mind that 6th ID in Alaska was replaced with 47th ID, putting both 6th and 10th in Norway at one point. This is probably realistic, since GDW's Soviet invasion of Alaska is just so much insanity and one division plus the AK ARNG at that time is probably as much force as you'd need.

10th Mountain being sent back to Alaska was a emergency/contingency operation after the .sovs rolled into AK, so while 6th ID might have been better, 10th was the guys who were available. That part is plausible -- sometimes you work with what you've got, not the 100% perfect solution (no matter how much it hurt people's feelings when Rumsfeld said something to that effect).

[dragoon500ly]

I always felt that the 6th LID would have either been kept in AK, especially with worsening US/Soviet relations. If it was deployed outside of AK, then it most likely would have deployed to Korea as part of 8th Army's reinforcements.

The 10th Mountain would have deployed to Norway, reinforced by Atlantic Fleet's MEB OR held stateside until its roundout brigade was ready and then be a later reinforcement to Iran and the only reason why I support another light division in the RDF is because of the Zargos Mountains...

The 29th LID was slated for the Persian Gulf as well. In my RDF games, they have always been busy securing the Saudi Arabia base areas or reinforcing the Egyptians in the Suez Canal Zone.

The 49th and 50th Armored are the NG's oddballs. The 49th AD has a NATO role, I've always sent it to Europe in place of the so-called 44th AD. The 50th AD gets sent in the southwest to oppose the Mexican invasion.

[Abbott Shaull]

I have been wondering. With the number of excess sailors and airmen in places like Korea, Europe, and Middle East. Would we find such Brigades as the Enhance Maneuver Brigades with an Provisional Infantry Battalion, Field Artillery Battalion, and Brigade Support Battalion. Then adding MP Battalions, Engineer Battalions and other units. These Brigades would be assigned to various Corps level and to various Divisions as replacement for combat units being rotated to reserve position or other forward Corps level positions. These units would have some type of Civil Affairs units assigned too.

I can see these Brigades being organized largely in Europe and Korea. Maybe a few in the Middle East and being assigned to some of the Division to help spread out the Combat units equally among the Divisions. I can also see by 2000 that the 82nd and 101st Division retaining operational control of one or two Brigades while the other Divisions with the Central Command detach a Brigade and to be attached to these two divisions and them receiving the Airborne/Air Assault Brigade to be used as active airmobile reserve for the Division.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I always felt that the 6th LID would have either been kept in AK, especially with worsening US/Soviet relations. If it was deployed outside of AK, then it most likely would have deployed to Korea as part of 8th Army's reinforcements.

The 10th Mountain would have deployed to Norway, reinforced by Atlantic Fleet's MEB OR held stateside until its roundout brigade was ready and then be a later reinforcement to Iran and the only reason why I support another light division in the RDF is because of the Zargos Mountains...

With a full up Soviet push into Norway, I can easily see a logic to pushing both 10th and 6th to Norway. (Whether 6th ID would have taken their roundout battalion from the AK ARNG is a question, even if they were bumped up with their USAR roundout brigade -- though that battalion was probably part of the six battalions in the two Arctic Scout brigades in GDW's take on things.)

GDW has 47th ID taking over the Alaska garrison mission, so there's no real loss in effectiveness, and actually additional firepower.

The problem with GDW's take on Alaska is that 6th ID + the AK ARNG (or 47th ID plus same) is an adequate garrison for the threat as it really existed -- the Soviets lacked the power projection to put anyone on the ground in serious numbers up here, so operations would probably have consisted of nuisance raiding and SOF missions on both sides of the border. I'm sure the Soviets would have made a stab at taking out the pipeline with SOF before they were just able to nuke it, but they just didn't have the means to put the troops shown in T2K on the ground.

But, in an alternate universe where the Soviets had the means to put a couple combined arms armies across the Bering Strait, 6th ID + 47th ID + the two brigades of the GDW AK ARNG aren't an adequate garrison. I'd expect for the actual threat environment depicted, that at least another army division, or possibly one of the two MarDivs sent to Korea would have been parked in Alaska, probably with at least the Canadian brigade group that was supposed to head to Korea mentioned in some of the GDW stuff forward deployed into Alaska as well, or at least staged as a theater reserve in the Yukon at Whitehorse or maybe closer to the border.

(And then there is the whole mess of how the invasion is described -- it sounds like the .sovs came across the Straits and just drove overland from somewhere around Nome on to Fairbanks. Then turned south to take Anchorage. And then somehow miracled themselves down into the panhandle to take Juneau and Haines -- if only to explain how Soviet troops make it to Whitehorse.

No part of that makes any degree of sense. Just the Nome to Fairbanks part is 837 kilometers, straight line distance, across nothing. No infrastructure and no roads. Even with the sexy hover mobile brigades involved there's just no way to get an armored force across that distance in the summer, and trying to make that movement in the winter would make the worst days of the Eastern Front look like a slightly chilly spring afternoon. The rest of it is equally boggling -- a post-nuclear campaign waged across a maneuver area around the same size as the central European front from French-German border to the deepest penetrations of NATO forces into Soviet territory.)

[/soap box mode]

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Like to throw out a couple of thoughts...

Does anyone else find the deployments of some of the powers to be, well, more than a little odd? For example, the 6th Light Infantry Division was formed to be the garrison for Alaska with the secondary mission of reinforcing Korea. And yet GDW has the division in Central Europe. A division trained for artic/mountain warfare in the Central German Plain?

Ditto for the 10th Mountain Division. When this division was formed, its mission was to serve as the main reinforcement for Norway and yet it winds up on the Pacific Northwest...

The 40th Mechanized Infantry Division is a CA-NG division with no NATO mission, in fact it was always considered to be a reinforcement for the Persian Gulf...And while the RDF of one airborne, one air assault, one motorized, one mechanized and two marine divisions, is a powerful force. It is sadly lacking in offensive punch, especially with the task of securing a major oil reserve. Its only NATO reinforcement is an ad-hoc British/Gurkha brigade that lacks most of the attachments that a brigade would bring with it.

Considering that the Persian Gulf would provide a majority of the oil products used by NATO, one wonders if a larger commitment of troops to the gulf would be a more reasonable decision.

In World War Two, here in the UK we spent 1940-1944 training a division for mountain and arctic warfare then deployed it to Holland...

[HorseSoldier]

CENTCOM in T2K manages to hold onto Saudi Arabia with no serious drama, so NATO's oil situation is okay. Contesting Iran is important but kind of just the bonus round -- and an economy of force mission when the European theater is full tilt boogie. If they can hold without augmentation, especially not another heavy division, that's likely to be all they'll get.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

CENTCOM in T2K manages to hold onto Saudi Arabia with no serious drama, so NATO's oil situation is okay. Contesting Iran is important but kind of just the bonus round -- and an economy of force mission when the European theater is full tilt boogie. If they can hold without augmentation, especially not another heavy division, that's likely to be all they'll get.

After rereading some of Harold Coyle's novels and RDF sourcebook as well; the impression you get is that the push to hold onto Iran was a desire to have as much strategic depth as possible in order to protect the Saudi/Gulf oil fields. Okay, makes sense...but the force commitment is what is so screwed. A single heavy division, no matter the size its commander's balls is going to be able to push against 1 or more Soviet armies. Even dropping the 82nd behind the lines to break the LOC would run into serious trouble from the 2nd & 3rd echlon divisions. And while the ole maroon beret may make its wearer semi-bulletproof....it doesn't have any effect when the enemy switchs from 7.62mm to 152mm...(now if the 82nd pulled a Chuck Norris and ripped off their BDU shirts and exposed their heroic manly chests....and a salute to Steve Jackson and his Heroic Hollywood Nudity stat!). Nope CENTCOM doesn't have the force structure to do half of what the canon material says they did.

My own feelings is that in order to pull off the "canon" material, CENTCOM had to have some form of additional force. My approach is to add two heavy divisions, an ACR, an LCR as well as some additional Iranian forces. I also debate about some kind of NATO force, most likely a British/Commonwealth Brigade....and yes I do add an Aussie battalion to the mix. Yes, it draws units from the CENTAG/NORTHAG mix...but I've always had issues with what GDW "sent" in that front.

And just for arguments sake...what in the world were they thinking when they decided to ship MILGOV/CIVGOV forces to Yugoslavia? Got tired of fighting against overwhelming odds and decided to enter Europe's free-fire zone?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

After rereading some of Harold Coyle's novels and RDF sourcebook as well; the impression you get is that the push to hold onto Iran was a desire to have as much strategic depth as possible in order to protect the Saudi/Gulf oil fields. Okay, makes sense...but the force commitment is what is so screwed. A single heavy division, no matter the size its commander's balls is going to be able to push against 1 or more Soviet armies. Even dropping the 82nd behind the lines to break the LOC would run into serious trouble from the 2nd & 3rd echlon divisions. And while the ole maroon beret may make its wearer semi-bulletproof....it doesn't have any effect when the enemy switchs from 7.62mm to 152mm...(now if the 82nd pulled a Chuck Norris and ripped off their BDU shirts and exposed their heroic manly chests....and a salute to Steve Jackson and his Heroic Hollywood Nudity stat!). Nope CENTCOM doesn't have the force structure to do half of what the canon material says they did.

My own feelings is that in order to pull off the "canon" material, CENTCOM had to have some form of additional force. My approach is to add two heavy divisions, an ACR, an LCR as well as some additional Iranian forces. I also debate about some kind of NATO force, most likely a British/Commonwealth Brigade....and yes I do add an Aussie battalion to the mix. Yes, it draws units from the CENTAG/NORTHAG mix...but I've always had issues with what GDW "sent" in that front.

And just for arguments sake...what in the world were they thinking when they decided to ship MILGOV/CIVGOV forces to Yugoslavia? Got tired of fighting against overwhelming odds and decided to enter Europe's free-fire zone?

Don't forget the Iranian Army - these play quite a large part in the war.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Don't forget the Iranian Army - these play quite a large part in the war.

GDW forget the Iranian Army. I've always felt that a lot more than 5 divisions survived. My own game has between 12-15 divisions surviving and help holding the line.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

After rereading some of Harold Coyle's novels and RDF sourcebook as well; the impression you get is that the push to hold onto Iran was a desire to have as much strategic depth as possible in order to protect the Saudi/Gulf oil fields. Okay, makes sense...but the force commitment is what is so screwed. A single heavy division, no matter the size its commander's balls is going to be able to push against 1 or more Soviet armies. Even dropping the 82nd behind the lines to break the LOC would run into serious trouble from the 2nd & 3rd echlon divisions. And while the ole maroon beret may make its wearer semi-bulletproof....it doesn't have any effect when the enemy switchs from 7.62mm to 152mm...(now if the 82nd pulled a Chuck Norris and ripped off their BDU shirts and exposed their heroic manly chests....and a salute to Steve Jackson and his Heroic Hollywood Nudity stat!). Nope CENTCOM doesn't have the force structure to do half of what the canon material says they did.

My own feelings is that in order to pull off the "canon" material, CENTCOM had to have some form of additional force. My approach is to add two heavy divisions, an ACR, an LCR as well as some additional Iranian forces. I also debate about some kind of NATO force, most likely a British/Commonwealth Brigade....and yes I do add an Aussie battalion to the mix. Yes, it draws units from the CENTAG/NORTHAG mix...but I've always had issues with what GDW "sent" in that front.

And just for arguments sake...what in the world were they thinking when they decided to ship MILGOV/CIVGOV forces to Yugoslavia? Got tired of fighting against overwhelming odds and decided to enter Europe's free-fire zone?

Yeah I have to agree there would of had sent more to hold. Look back at the first PG1 they had nearly half of the Regular US Army sitting in the Desert.

Then we have current operation in Iraq of the last 8 or so year that throw things askew. Granted their isn't a fighting Soviet Front thrown into the match. Yet, GDW has sent only 1 Airborne, 1 Air Assault, 1 Mechanized, 1 Light Motorized (Test-Bed) and 2 Marine Divisions with 1 Air Combat Cavalry Brigade does seem too light. I agree that couple more Heavy Divisions and ACR or two wouldn't hurt.

As for the 82nd being sent to cut the LOC of the advance Soviet unit that were engaged with the 3rd US Army and its allied forces.

What I do see even with the 82nd and 101st Division is that they would cross-attach a Brigade with other US Army Division to balance out the forces. In the resource book GDW stated that each Division was regular pulled from the fronts lines and shipped to Saudi for rest and refit.

Another thing I am sure the British would have sent more in the lines of Commonwealth Division in which HQ, support units, and one or more combat Brigade from the UK and the rest from whatever they could scrounge up from Commonwealth members.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by James Langham

In World War Two, here in the UK we spent 1940-1944 training a division for mountain and arctic warfare then deployed it to Holland...

One of the reasons why the Italian Campaign of WWII was such a meatgrinder, all of the trained "mountain" divisions had been deployed elsewhere. It was only until the French and their Algerian troops were deployed that mountain-trained troops actually fought in the mountains....

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

One of the reasons why the Italian Campaign of WWII was such a meatgrinder, all of the trained "mountain" divisions had been deployed elsewhere. It was only until the French and their Algerian troops were deployed that mountain-trained troops actually fought in the mountains....

Well, until the French/Africans showed up, there were hardly any Allied mountain troops. The US was still training the 10th division (1 regiment went to the Aleutians for a while), the Indian 4th division had had some mountain training, but had been fighting in the Desert for a while. Other than the aforementioned 52nd, that was about it.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah the XVIII Airborne Corps was always complex on where they would head too. On one hand they were considered a Reserve, on another hand they had the two Divisional size units that could be rapidly deployed to low intensity conflict. On the other hand every other combat unit that was suppose to make up the Corps besides these two could end up in Europe just as easily as Central Command AO. Even with that said, the Corps could end up almost anywhere in the world.

10th Mountain, 6th Light, 9th Motorized, and 24th Mechanized could of ended up almost anywhere during the conflict. Do I see 6th Light go to Norway. Uhm no way, and I don't see them leaving for Korea. Maybe moving a one of their two Brigades to Korea yes, but otherwise the Division HQ, 1 combat Brigade, Aviation Brigade, and Support stay put in Alaska and the they take over command of many of the Alaska Nation Guard units. 10th Mountain I see going to Norway. 9th and 24th well I see them being used to supply manpower to US Europe first. Not sure where in Europe but probably there.

The thing is after the 1st Cavalry, 2nd Armor, 1st Mechanized, 4th Mechanized, 5th Mechanized, 9th Motorized, and 24th Mechanized Divisions as well the 194th Armor Brigade and 197th Mechanized Brigade are shipped out as well as the 3rd Armor Cavalry Regiment. I can see new units being raised to with the equipment that they left. With that said, of course all the Division would need another Brigade, but if you take 194th and 197th replacement and assign them one of the 7 new divisions. Then all you need in another 5 round-out Brigades and assign them to the other 5 Divisions to bring them up to strength. This could give you the 4th Armor Division, 6th Armor Division, 3 other newly name Armor/Mechanized Divisions as well the 9th and 24th Division being reconstituted. Of these I see a few of these going to Europe while the bulk head to Central Command to give the 3rd Army some teeth, if not to the 8th Army.

Also I can see units like the 11th, 13th, and 17th Airborne/Air Assault/Airmobile Divisions being organized various places. 11th possible in Korea with 1 Airborne and 1 Air Assault Brigade to start off with. The 13th at Campbell and 17th at Bragg trying to raise new units, but with XVIII Corps loses everywhere they none of these Division get much beyond 2 specialized Brigades, Aviation, and Support with maybe Mechanized or Heavy Motorized Brigade added.

Again back to the 82nd, 101st and any other Light Division with Central Command in the Middle East or Europe. I can see these Divisions giving up one combat Brigade to Heavy Division for a Heavy Brigade to give them some teeth.

Just some thought

[HorseSoldier]

I don't see the war lasting long enough for significant new formations to be raised -- not while the US is trying to sustain high intensity operations on 3+ fronts.

All the stuff left by units that punched out for POMCUS sites wasn't bonus waiting for new guys to fall in on it, it would have been right into the pipeline for the equipment side of battle casualty replacements. And equipment losses on the European front by itself would be staggering compared to what we've seen in the '91 and '02 iterations redecorating the Cradle of Civilization. Likewise guys rolling through the initial training pipeline -- most would be individual replacements bound for units already in theater, not set aside for new units. The handful of new or rebuilt from the ground up units depicted in T2K are probably a reasonable estimation of what would be feasible while simultaneously keeping units in theater(s) combat effective.

The whole WW3 situation isn't a replay of World War Two -- the logistics of wartime production of everything from M1 tanks to aircraft to modern munitions is significantly more complicated and much more bottlenecked. You can't farm out Bradley or M1 production to the Saturn car plant in Tennessee and such as was routinely done in WW2 stuff -- and even if you could, the war goes nuclear in less than 12 months, which isn't enough time for much of that to happen at all even for stuff that has an easier cross over.

[Legbreaker]

What we're presented with in the books is, granted, chaotic, but when looked at closely, it makes sense. Units were sent where they were desperately needed, when they were needed and as the transportation was available. Yes the "correct" units may not have gone where they could have been the most effective, but since when has a plan ever survived five minutes past implementation?

It's my opinion that the OOB's as published, while far from perfect, are a damn fine example of the chaos a multi-front war will create. We can talk all we want about how to "fix" it, but when it all boils down, "fixing" really only radically changes the balance of power in the various regions and simply doesn't reflect what would truly happen if WWIII happened to break out.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I don't see the war lasting long enough for significant new formations to be raised -- not while the US is trying to sustain high intensity operations on 3+ fronts.

All the stuff left by units that punched out for POMCUS sites wasn't bonus waiting for new guys to fall in on it, it would have been right into the pipeline for the equipment side of battle casualty replacements. And equipment losses on the European front by itself would be staggering compared to what we've seen in the '91 and '02 iterations redecorating the Cradle of Civilization. Likewise guys rolling through the initial training pipeline -- most would be individual replacements bound for units already in theater, not set aside for new units. The handful of new or rebuilt from the ground up units depicted in T2K are probably a reasonable estimation of what would be feasible while simultaneously keeping units in theater(s) combat effective.

The whole WW3 situation isn't a replay of World War Two -- the logistics of wartime production of everything from M1 tanks to aircraft to modern munitions is significantly more complicated and much more bottlenecked. You can't farm out Bradley or M1 production to the Saturn car plant in Tennessee and such as was routinely done in WW2 stuff -- and even if you could, the war goes nuclear in less than 12 months, which isn't enough time for much of that to happen at all even for stuff that has an easier cross over.

True enough granted if there was no time between the time when the fighting starts and when US, UK, and other NATO members enter the fighting. Then yeah lot of the stuff would be either used to re-equip NG and Reserves as they were called up. With the build up that GDW gives us, even the US Military would have enough time to cycle a couple rotation through Basic Training and in some MOS people underway in the AIT. Of course these units would pay hell once they enter combat, but rotate them up front to fill holes in some of the Divisions already in combat while this Brigade or that were withdrawn to get rest and refit...


Such MOS like Medics, Ranger Training, and Q Course (along with other Special Operation units course) wouldn't have enough time to train to expand. Yet once the shooting war starts Rangers school will be shorten to get more qualified Rangers for the Regiment and for line units. Same with Special Forces in many cases the Teams will go through the initial training and more intensive shorten training to get them ready.

Of course, after TDM there will be plenty of Ranger trained and Special Operation trained units that will be shifted around for disaster relief duty when it becomes clears that sending reinforcement is no longer a real option. With many of the Special Operation teams you can create various recovery teams around these type of units.

Just some thought...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by James Langham

In World War Two, here in the UK we spent 1940-1944 training a division for mountain and arctic warfare then deployed it to Holland...

Well the current 10th Mountain Division is much like the 101st an Airborne Division. True that Fort Drum is close to the mountains in up state New York, but it was basically Light Infantry unit. Much like the 101st is organized along similar lines of the 82nd Airborne Division, the Division is trained in Air Assault and Airmobile operations.

Even in WWII their was a couple Divisions trained in the US that were called Mountain Divisions, I believe only the 10th made it to Italy...