OT Navies in WWII

[dragoon500ly]

Since it seems like we are getting a bit off topic on the new PRC Carrier thread...

In discussion about how hard it is to sink a warship, here are some examples:

The USS Franklin was struck by a kamikaze off Okinawa in 1945. The suicide bomber landed on the flight deck among fueled and armed aircraft setting off a series of explosions that killed over 700 of her crew and wounded 200 more within a matter of minutes and causing a near fatal list and extensive fires. She was able to put out the fires with the assistance of her escorts, restart her engines and get out of the danger area. She then made a 12,000-mile voyage to the Brooklyn Navay Yard under her own power, stopping only once to take on stores and spare parts.

The Italian battleship Roma was lost in Sept. 1943 when a single radio-controlled glide bomb penetrated a magazine.

The USS Princeton was lost to a single bomb that penetrated several decks to detonate in a magazine off Leyte in 1944.

The HMAS Australia managed to survive a half-dozen kamikaze hits suffered over several days off Okinawa in 1945.

The HIJMS Mogami was virtually a total wreck after the Battle of Midway having been repeatedly bombed by USN ac., yet managed to keep under way and make it back to base safely, to be repaired and returned to service.

The HIJMS Hiei was lost during the night action on Nov 12-13, 1942 when she took over 50 hits from 5-inch and 8-inch shells, which started uncontrollable fires leaving her dead in the water and an easy prey for US ac the next morning.

The upperworks of the HIJMS Aoba were turned into a total wreck by US cruiser and destroyer gunfire on Oct. 11-12, 1942, yet she managed to make her way out of the area and survive to fight again.

The USS San Francisco survived a dozen hits by 14-inch HE shells, plus 33 5-inch and 6-inch shells on Nov 12-13, 1942.

The USS South Dakota took one 5-inch, 6 6-inch, 18 8-inch and 2 14-inch hits on Nov 14-15, 1942. Two of the hits inflicted a very slight list, eighteen were into her upperworks, knocking out her search radar and causing a loss of electrical power.

The KMS Bismarck took a brutal beating:
24 May: 3 14-inch hits caused some flooding and reduced her speed from 30 to 28 knots. That evening a single torpedo hit reduced her speed to 20 knots.

26 May: 2-3 torpedoes (Germans say 2, Brits say 3) strike the ship, jamming her rudder and making her very slow and difficult to steer.

27 May: In her last fight, Bismarck absorbed between 300-400 hits from 14-inch, 16-inch and 8-inch guns as well as a single torpedo. She was reduced to a burning wreck, wracked by internal explosions and unable to maneuver or return fire. She still remained afloat, her crew fired scuttling charges and the British hit her with three more torpedoes before she finally sank.

The HIJMS Taiho was lost to a single torpedo hit, this resulted in minor damage and she was able to rejoin her task force. A aviation gas storage tank, damaged by the hit, leaked avgas into her bilges where it vaporized and eventually detonated, sinking her on the eve of the Battle of the Philippine Sea in 1944.

The HIJMS Musashi and Yamato, the largest warships in the world until the 1960s, both absorbed an extraordinary amount of damage before sinking. The Musashi taking 19 torpedo hits and 17 bombs on Oct 24, 1944. The Yamato suffered a dozen torpedoes and six bombs on April 7, 1945.

Finally...

The USS Houston (2nd of that name in the war) was hit by 2 torpedoes on Oct 16, 1945. This caused her to take on 6,500 tons of water, over 45% of her normal full load displacement, yet she survived. No other vessel in history has ever shipped that much water without sinking.

[dragoon500ly]

The first aircraft carrier to be sunk in action was the HMS Courageous which was hit by two torpedoes on Sept 17, 1939.

Her sister ship, HMS Glorious was the second carrier to be lost when she ran into the KMS Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on June 8, 1940.

The first carrier sunk in the Pacific was also British, HMS Hermes was sunk by air attack on March 9, 1942.

The first US carrier, USS Langley was sunk by aircraft in Feb 1942. No longer an aircraft carrier, she had been converted into a aircraft transport and was moving AAC P-40s to Java when she was sunk.

The first Japanese carrier lost was HIJMS Shoho, sunk in the Battle of the Coral Sea on May 8, 1942. The first US carrier to be sunk, the USS Lexington followed shortly thereafter.

The last American fleet carrier to be sunk was USS Hornet, on Oct 24, 1942.

The last Japanese carrier to be sunk, HIJMS Amagi was pounded to death by airstrikes in Kure Harbor on July 24, 1945.

[headquarters]

The discussion is an interesting one - although we know who won the war, the Japanese fielded several interesting and highly advanced craft. For their time.

Among these were several submarines like the I-14 and the I -201 and indeed the I-400 class.

Arguably these were some of the more interesting designs of the war - although operational use didnt amount to any major advantage for the IJN.

I enclose a link that is to be taken by a grain of salt - but indicative, still.

It is worth to remember that the performance of the IJN was hampered to some extent by rigid lines of command and doctrine that was outdated by the time the massive US airpower could be brought to bear.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm

[RN7]

I love talking about WW2, more!

[dragoon500ly]

The longest range in which a land-based artillery piece ever deliberately hit a target was a US Army 16-inch/45 coast defense gun which scored a hit at 35,200 yards (17.4 nautical miles) in August 1938 under what was described as "perfect conditions of weather and sea".

The longest range hit at sea happened on July 9, 1940 when the British battleship Warspite put a 15-inch round into the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare at 26,000 yards (12.8 nautical miles).

There were actually several battleship engagements in WWII

North Sea, April 9, 1940: KMS Scharnhorst and KMS Gneisenau fight an indecisive action with HMS Renown off Norway.

Mers El-Kebir, July 3, 1940: The HMS Resolution, HMS Valiant and HMS Hood bombard the French fleet near Oran, Algeria. Sinking the old battleship Bretagne, badly damaging her sister Provence and less seriously damaging the new Dunkerque while the latter's sister Strasbourg escaped unscathed.

Calabria, July 9, 1940: Another intense, but indecisive action is fought in between the Italian Giulio Cesare and Conte di Cavour vs. HMS Warspite, HMS Royal Sovereign and HMS Malaya.

Denmark Strait, May 24, 1941: KMS Bismarck and the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen sink HMS Hood and badly damaging HMS Prince of Wales.

North Atlantic, May 27, 1941: HMS King George V and HMS Rodney get revenge for the sinking of Hood by reducing Bismarck to a shattered wreck.

Casablanca, November 8, 1942: USS Massachusetts exchanges gunfire with the partially competed French Jean Beat which is badly damaged.

The 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, November 14-15, 1942: HIJMS Kirishima vs. USS Washington and USS South Dakota. South Dakota was damaged and Kirishima was pounded so badly that she had to be scuttled the next morning.

North Cape, December 26, 1943: HMS Duke of York sinks KMS Scharnhorst in a protracted slugging match.

The Battle of Surigao Strait, October 24-25, 1944: A US squadron including USS Mississippi, USS Maryland, USS West Virginia, USS Tennessee, USS California and USS Pennsylvania (all but the Mississippi being veterans of Pearl Harbor) vs. HIJMS Fuso and HIJMS Yamashiro. The IJN was ambushed by the US battleships and thier escorts in an action that was so one-sided that Pennsylvania never got a chance to fire. This is the last battleship action in history.

[dragoon500ly]

We've mentioned on a couple of threads the effect that Kamikaze's had on the Allies and the late war strategic decision to drop the A-bombs.

Kamikaze's were organized in the fall of 1944 and the first attack took place on October 25, 1944 off Samar Island in the southern Philippines. The results were encourging with two CVEs damaged and one CVE sunk.

Further attacks were made in between October 1944 and January 1945. 378 Kamikazes were sent out, all were lost as well as 102 escorting fighters. The sank 16 ships (2 CVEs, 3 DDs, 1 DMS and several smaller craft) and another 87 were damaged (7 CVs, 2 CVLs, 13 CVEs, 5 BBs, 3 CAs, 7 CLs, 23 DDs, 5 DEs,and 1 DMS). Shocked by the sudden change in Japanese tactics, the USN quickly began to change its defensive procedures in an effort to limit the damage that would be caused by future Kamikazes.

The Battle of Iwo Jima saw further Kamikaze attacks. The Japanese were hampered by the extreme range to be flown and their attacks were not as devastating. Several ships were struck, but the only real damage was to one CV and to a CVE that was sunk.

The Battle of Okinawa in April 1945 was the heyday of the Kamikaze. The Japanese deployed over 1,500 kamikazes (all lost) and nearly as many regular aircraft against the USN. American losses were heavy. 21 ships were sunk and 43 damaged so badly that repairs were not completed by the end of the war, another 23 were damaged, but would return to service within 30 days and 151 more were damaged to one degree or another. The USN suffered 9,700 casualties, 4,300 of whom were dead. For the Navy, the Battle of Okinawa was the most costly of the war. Seven percent of all USN losses for the war were suffered off of Okinawa.

All of this was in spite of the many counter-measures taken against the Kamikazes. In addition to better control of defending fighters and antiaircraft guns, there was inhanced crew training in damage control. There was also the the use of radar-equipped destroyers with fighter direction parties forming a picket line to give advance warning of Kamikazes and to direct fighters onto them.

The key problem facing the USN was that the Japanese had 200 airfields within range of Okinawa, too many even for the vast air power available to the US to shut down.

After Okinawa was Operation Downfall, the two invasions that would be launched against Japan itself. For this eventuality, the Japanese had over 5,000 Kamikazes ready. And since this would be fought close to the Japanese home islands, radar pickets and fighters would be less effective. The USN estimated that supporting Downfall would cost them over 10,000 casualties and at least 300 ships sunk or damaged.

[ShadoWarrior]

For Operation Olympic, the first stage of Operation Downfall, it was estimated that there would be a quarter million to a half a million US casualties, over 100,000 of which would be fatalities. And if the operations took longer than anticipated, casualties could/would climb upwards of one and a quarter million. Those were the estimates by US military officers. The estimates by outside (civilian) consultants were about 4-5 times higher!

Plans were also being made to drop up to 15 atomic bombs on and behind the invasion beaches, with troops following just 48 hours later. Needless to say, this would not have been very good for the invading troops.

[95th Rifleman]

HMS Hood was taken down by a single shell to her magazine. Plunging shot went straight through her wooden deck.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

For Operation Olympic, the first stage of Operation Downfall, it was estimated that there would be a quarter million to a half a million US casualties, over 100,000 of which would be fatalities. And if the operations took longer than anticipated, casualties could/would climb upwards of one and a quarter million. Those were the estimates by US military officers. The estimates by outside (civilian) consultants were about 4-5 times higher!

Plans were also being made to drop up to 15 atomic bombs on and behind the invasion beaches, with troops following just 48 hours later. Needless to say, this would not have been very good for the invading troops.

Would have been some invasion force all the same;

20 Aircraft Carriers, 36 Escort Carriers, 20 Battleships, 52 Cruisers, 460 Destroyers and Escorts, 5 USAAC Air Forces including 1,000 B-29s, 1 Armoured Division, 9 Infantry Divisions, 1 Airborne Division and 3 Marine Divisions. Plus 6 British Aircraft Carriers and the rest of the British Pacific Fleet, 22 RAF Bomber Squadrons and 20 Australian fighter squadrons.