OT: narco subs

[ShadoWarrior]

I'm currently reading the latest Clancy novel and was struck by a thought. IRL, the Columbian narco traffickers have been using small diesel-electric subs for a number of years now. Why doesn't the US government just task the USN with stationing a LA-class attack sub or two off the coast of Columbia and blow the damn things to hell? I would think that it wouldn't take too many losses of quarter-billion dollar cocaine cargoes before the cartels gave up using subs. If we're waging a "war on drugs", then why the hell aren't we really fighting it? I'm sure that the sailors would love the target practice, and the PR from doing it would be great.

[Legbreaker]

At a guess, perhaps the fact that you can't actually tell it's smuggling drugs?
What if it was just a research sub, or one somebody made in the back yard(Don't laugh, it's been done)? Imagine the outcry!
Without physically boarding the vessel and searching it, no matter if it's a sub, ship, airplane or hot air balloon, there's just no way to be sure it's not just somebody out for a joyride.

[ShadoWarrior]

Research subs are a lot smaller, and the sonar on USN subs is both extremely sensitive and tied to computer that has sonar spectra of almost all things in the world that produce noise at sea. The chance of making a mistake are very slim. Plus it's fairly easy to find out if it's a legit ship. Ping it with sonar. If they run (which is likely), you are free to blow it out of the water.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

I'm currently reading the latest Clancy novel and was struck by a thought. IRL, the Columbian narco traffickers have been using small diesel-electric subs for a number of years now. Why doesn't the US government just task the USN with stationing a LA-class attack sub or two off the coast of Columbia and blow the damn things to hell? I would think that it wouldn't take too many losses of quarter-billion dollar cocaine cargoes before the cartels gave up using subs. If we're waging a "war on drugs", then why the hell aren't we really fighting it? I'm sure that the sailors would love the target practice, and the PR from doing it would be great.

You want to use a Los Angelese class attack submarine to hunt little narco subs? That's not just a waste of resources, but it's also stupid.

It's not exactly easy to find these subs so you'll need multiple subs patroling an extended area. Then you get to engaging the subs, the drug traffickers are criminals so you can't just "blow them to hell" and not expect some serious political fall-out. An attempt to arrest and seize the cargo has to be made, otherwise it's state-sanctioned murder and that opens a whole can of worms.

Then we get to cost, a mark 48 torpedo costs around 3.8 MILLION dollars per unit! It's designed to take out military-grade capital ships. The Harpoon missles only cost around 1.2 million but are designed for targeting surface ships.

So you want the USN to task up to 3 of it's best anti-ship sumarines to destroy narco subs with torpedos that cost nearly 4 million per unit? factor in the cost of keeping these ships on station, the political fall-out and mess a state-sanctioned execution (because that's what your sugesting) will cause.

The PR would not be great, it would be an international bloody disaster. Imagine the PR coup nations like China and Iran will make of it. Hell you'll get folks claiming these where "research" or "recreation" subs and because a mark48 torpedo won't leave much evidence to prove otherwise there will be no way of really proving the kill was carrying narcotics, sewater does bad things to cocaine so getting evidence will be next to impossible.

Worst case scenario will see a demand for the sub captains to be put on trial for murder. America will never give up said captains of course, but the international community would have a field day.

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

You want to use a Los Angelese class attack submarine to hunt little narco subs? That's not just a waste of resources, but it's also stupid.

Got a better idea?

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

the drug traffickers are criminals so you can't just "blow them to hell" and not expect some serious political fall-out. An attempt to arrest and seize the cargo has to be made, otherwise it's state-sanctioned murder and that opens a whole can of worms.

The US already employs state-sanctioned murder in Pakistan (and other places around the world) with drone missile strikes. Narco criminals are classified as terrorists. And we all know that the US is "at war" with anything the US labels as a terrorist group. Narco subs are fair game under those rules. I don't see how applying the same "logic" being used against Al-Qaeda can't be applied to the drug cartels.

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

So you want the USN to task up to 3 of it's best anti-ship sumarines to destroy narco subs with torpedos that cost nearly 4 million per unit? factor in the cost of keeping these ships on station, the political fall-out and mess a state-sanctioned execution (because that's what your sugesting) will cause.

Quarter of a billion dollars (or more) per drug cargo load. Do the math. Torp is cheap in perspective, especially when you consider the economic damage inflicted on the nation by each shipment. Wouldn't need to use many torps before the drug cartels got the message that using subs is a bad investment.

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The PR would not be great, it would be an international bloody disaster. Imagine the PR coup nations like China and Iran will make of it. Hell you'll get folks claiming these where "research" or "recreation" subs and because a mark48 torpedo won't leave much evidence to prove otherwise there will be no way of really proving the kill was carrying narcotics, sewater does bad things to cocaine so getting evidence will be next to impossible.

Any target that refuses to surface when challenged is by definition not a legit vessel. So, if the US blew up a narco sub, who's going to claim it was a bunch of tourists on a joyride? If you think the drug cartels are going to, you're astonishingly naive. Plus there would be wreckage on the sea floor that could (and would) be photographed that would be impossible for the drug cartels to claim was something other than a drug sub. You're assuming that the US would announce the killing immediately, instead of taking the time to gather all the proof the media would demand to see before going public with an announcement.

[Legbreaker]

So they wouldn't be doing this in international waters would they?
Which leaves them a thin band of just 12 nautical miles from low water mark by just how many thousands of miles long? Just how shallow can the water be for a Los Angeles class (or other) sub to operate effectively?
Seems to me that all the smugglers need to do is ensure they've got a few decoy vessels in the area - just wait until the sub has surfaced and begun searching the decoy and dash across into shallow waters.

[95th Rifleman]

This idea belongs in a call of duty game, not the real world.

How exactly do you "challenge" a narco sub anyway? They have basic equipment at best and you can't exactly flag them down underwater. The "ping with sonar" and kill them if they run idea is not legitimate and is most likely ilegal. What happens when the cartels realise the Americans won't shoot something that looks legit on their sonar? They will just start using boats that are either legit research vessels or made to have the same signature.

As it hapens, I DO have a better idea. Use conventional ASW helicopters and crewed speedboats... oh wait, the US coastguard is already doing that.

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

As it hapens, I DO have a better idea. Use conventional ASW helicopters and crewed speedboats... oh wait, the US coastguard is already doing that.

Last I checked, Columbia is in South America, which is well outside of the area patrolled by the USCG. And the subs go between Columbia and Mexico, not Columbia and the US. Moreover, they mainly travel in the Pacific, which puts them far beyond the range of USCG ships based in California, even if they were allowed to patrol so far from home.

But even if it was done, it presumes you already know that there's a sub in the area. It's a lot harder to detect a sub from the air or surface than from underwater. Sound travels a very long way underwater. And an attack sub doesn't tip off the bad guys that you're in the area hunting for them.

Next "better" idea?