Body Armor in T2K

[Raellus]

I don't think we have a thread devoted to this topic. Assuming that's correct, I thought this might be a good topic to open for discussion.

The idea came to me when I was watching a recent (I think) episode of Pawn Stars on the History Channel. Apparently, kevlar has a bit of a half-life. After about 5 years, the fibers start to deteriorate, apparently making the vest less safe. I had no idea. The vest the guy brought in to the pawn store even had the date it was issued/sold written on the tag. I had never thought about Kevlar body armor losing it's integrity over time.

If this is the case, a lot of Kevlar body armor would be approaching that 5 year use-by date in the year 2000. I think it's safe to assume that Kevlar body armor produced after '97 would be extremely rare.

If you wanted to, I guess you could address this in game mechanics by assigning Kevlar body armor a wear value based on age (as well as previous use).

Anyway, your input is welcome. Please feel free to use this thread for any discussion having to do with body armor in the T2KU.

[HorseSoldier]

How well it ages is also dependent on how it is stored and how heavily used it is. Anything in constant use during the entire war is probably much worse off than something made in, say, 1990 and stored flat in a cool location out of sunlight.

And it bears noting that any hard plates and similar in service in the Twilight War timeline (and those would be pretty scarce to begin with) will be single hit plates that will lose a lot of their ballistic protection if they're hit. Soft armor that suffers penetrations will likewise be compromised to varying degrees.

[kcdusk]

Now that you've said that, it makes sense. I work at a place where we have to wear those flouresent yellow/orange or white safety hats. Legally (in australia) we have to update our hats every 2 years i think it is. Why? Because even if it hasnt been knocked, safety wise its best to change them over. I see no difference why kevlar vests would be different.

I also agree, it would "age" depending on how it had been looked after. I'd imagine 99% of vests would have seen hard use in t2k times. A player would really have to argue a good argument to get a good condition kevlar jacket in my view.

Finally, i reckon V1.0 rules said something like "kevlar has a wear value just like vehilces. For each hit, the wear value goes up by 1. When a jacket gets to wear value 10 it is useless providing, any benefit" - or words to those effect.

And while we're here, I'd apply "bulk" modifiers for wearing a vest. Jumping a gate, climbing a fence, any type of movement that is harder than usual anyway, would be harder when wearing a vest. I think most real world SWAT and other vest wearing types agree with this. They are also hot to wear, so endurance can be affected. Doubly so if wearing a vest in an APC type vehicle for any length of time.

[simonmark6]

I've done some net trawling and information is inconclusive.

bulletproofme.com has a quote that may or may not apply:

“NIJ tests failed to demonstrate any significant differences in 10-year-old armor, regardless of the extent of use or apparent physical condition”

“The warranty exists solely to limit the manufacturer's liability on the product and is not a reflection of the anticipated service life of the product.”

...Guide to Police Body Armor, National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center (NLECTC)

I haven't been able to verify this quote or find out if it specifically refers to Kevlar.

From a TK2 feel of things I like the idea of degrading protection. Perhaps a variation of the TK2013 wear rules might be in order. For armour that has been subject to wear and tear, roll d6-1 to determine age. This is its base wear value. The wear value represents the percentage lost from protection so a WV of 5 vest would lose 1 AV (I'd only apply when it got to 5 1/2 protection and 10 useless). In addition, the vest loses 1 WV for every additional year of use and 1 WV every time it is hit.

[Legbreaker]

I believe you're right about the 10 hit capacity of body armour in V1.0. Been a while since I looked though.
Close Assault Armour, which has twice the protective level of "standard" kevlar applies several penalties to the wearer, notably restricting movement to no more than a trot and I think making all tasks one level harder.
If we were to go even better to the bomb tech style of protection, 'd say nothing more than a slow walk and forget about using anything more bulky than a pistol or small SMG - certainly wouldn't be able to put a rifle to the shoulder or use the sights. Small manual movement of the hands shouldn't be penalised (that's an important necessity for bomb disposal) but there'd be no way the wearer would be doing any gymnastics.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I believe you're right about the 10 hit capacity of body armour in V1.0. Been a while since I looked though.

Shame on you, you should know V1.0 by heart! Its the bible, which we quote from religlously!

[Legbreaker]

My motorcycle gear is almost all Kevlar and is over ten years old. In that time I've come off a couple of times and without it wouldn't be here today. My jacket especially copped a hammering in one incident but besides a few small tears which were easily patched up it's still as good as new.
Based on that, and realising it's not necessarily the same composition as ballistic armour, I've no problem in believing it does not degrade over time - I still trust my life to the same jacket, etc that I've been using for over a decade.

This isn't to say that a bullet or shrapnel wouldn't cause it significant damage and several hits wouldn't render it less effective though. General use, wear and tear, or what have you isn't likely, in my opinion, to significantly downgrade performance to the point where it needs to be reflected in game. Any armour in 2000 isn't likely to be all new and shiny though, and is sure to have suffered some damage to it's outer layer from stones, branches and general accidents, but unless it's hit with something powerful enough to penetrate, I say it really shouldn't be effected IC.

Even armour which has been penetrated is better than nothing - a bullet may still hit a good portion of the armour and although the energy may not be spread out across a wide area, it's still likely to slow the bullet to the point where the wearer isn't killed but just injured. 10 penetrations seems a reasonable limit though - after that it's little more than swiss cheese and although weighes the same (near enough) to new offers little measureable protection.

[dragoon500ly]

I remember reading someplace that kevlar is chemically inert so it doesn't break down over time. I'm checking some sites and if I can find more info, I'll post the link.

[Odie]

[QUOTE=Raellus;36473] Apparently, kevlar has a bit of a half-life. After about 5 years, the fibers start to deteriorate, apparently making the vest less safe.QUOTE]

I knew there was a shelf life, I didn't know the time frame. When I worked at the Sheriff office we had our vests inspected yearly. They never told us what the expiration date was.

[Antenna]

I got armor and ammo file.

www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/
"The Odd End" to right menu bar
then
"Gamerelated" to left menu bar

Good Luck Gents

PS
those who has problems with the info start a new trhead called "Antennas Ammo"
DS

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Odie

I knew there was a shelf life, I didn't know the time frame. When I worked at the Sheriff office we had our vests inspected yearly. They never told us what the expiration date was.

From what I understand of it, the 5 years is a 'safe' shelf life based upon the manufacturers guarantees of five years from date of manufacture. This can be drastically shortened if Kevlar items are not maintained correctly, if they are not stored properly and even if they are subject to unusual levels of everyday 'wear & tear'.

Proper storage includes keeping them out of direct sunlight (or other sources of UV radiation), only folding them in the proper places, keeping them free from grit, solvents etc., not subjecting them to extreme temperatures or unusual levels of humidity and so on. For example, I read of one Arizona police officer's experience that the temperature and humidity they 'suffer' in Phoenix lowered Kevlar vest life expectancy to just 2-3 years under normal wear & storage.

They can and will last longer if given the proper treatment/storage but this needs to be strictly maintained (and this seems to be only a year or two longer, it's not like 10-15 years or anything like that).