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What to do with the 43,000 troops and dependents from Going Home?
I've been struggling with what happens to Norfolk and places beyond when the 43,000 combat-weary troops and dependents come home from Europe at the conclusion of Going Home.
All we really know about Norfolk VA is that it was nuked (per Howling Wilderness) and that orders come from there at the beginning of Armies of the Night sending them to NY. We know that the area around Norfolk "currently supports a small (and shrinking) Milgov enclave, consisting mostly of troops brought back from Europe in late 2000." What happens to the troops who arrive? Who was there to greet them? I assume a lot of folks don't want to stay in the Army and want to return home. What happens to them? Are they disarmed and escorted to a gate with a "have a nice day"? Are any convoys organized to get folks back to the West Coast? with what fuel? The logistics of the sudden arrival of 43,000 people can't be overlooked, and yet the modules and all the source material treat them as if they vanish into thin air as soon as they get off the boat. Never mind that the majority of these 43,000 people are combat veterans and who are basically broke and gearless (thanks to the 100kg limit imposed). Unless something is done about these folks in an organized fashion, the surrounding countryside is about to get blasted with a nomad population who all know how to use a firearm. Does anyone have any ideas about what to do with this mob? Last edited by agrikk; 09-22-2011 at 11:48 AM. |
#2
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I am sure some G1 staffers will be segregating them as they arrive.
Army to hangar 1 Air Force Hanger 2 Marines Hangar 3 Navy Hangar 4 Coast Guard 5 DOD Civilians 6 All Family Members stay with your Military Member. The will be food, facilities and Members of YOUR Branch to answer your questions. Amtrak will get pressed into Service (it Govt) as Troop trains. Service Members may get separated fast and find themselves on the way to a new front. |
#3
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Oooh! Amtrak! I'd totally forgotten about it as a resource.
What a great idea. A few trains run to get the bulk of troops out of the area will be a great way to thin out the herd... |
#4
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The following threads have all dealt with this to some degree or other.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2408 http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2088 http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1957 http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1745 There is evidence to say the bulk of the returning soldiers were demobilised, weapons and other military equipment confiscated and the new civilians essentially just shown the door. So what happens with say a navy man married to a air force woman? Trains aren't really going to be much of an option with major transportation hubs nuked (not to mention where the troops landed in the first place). They might get a few dozen, maybe a hundred miles, but that's about it before they hit a section of impassible (without major work) track. Besides, the military got tens of thousands of people back to the US, for those they've demobilised, that's about where their responsibilty to them ends.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
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Quote:
Old saying in the Army: "If the Army wanted you to have a wife, they'd issue you one."
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
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Agreed, it's a crappy situation with the marriage almost certainly doomed to fail IRL. In T2K on the other hand, at least by 2000, it doesn't seem as much of a problem. Without planes to service and fly, the air force personnel are twiddling their thumbs, and so are naval crew. Both are likely to find themselves either demobilised (most likely) or seconded to the Army.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#7
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Ummm...serve them up in a light wine sauce and with a side of fava beans?
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#8
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I could see a lot of semi-official organisations springing up to try to organise people into groups with mutual interests, traveling from Norfolk to certain far away locations for instance. These would probably (at first) have official sanction and some official assistance. I think MILGOV would try really hard to keep things organised and civilised around Norfolk at first but by mid to late 2001 the authorities would be losing their grip on all but the specified east coast enclaves. By far and away the best source of canon information about conditions and locations along the east coast from Norfolk to New Jersey post-Going Home is the mini-sourcebook A Rock in Troubled Waters in Challenge Magazine issue #42. It is 9 pages long and far, far more detailed than, say, Howling Wildernes. It is set in early 2001 and contains notable remaining MILGOV units, major militia and maurauder groups and even some of the remaining naval assets being operated by MILGOV between Virginia and New Jersey. This is the opening section of A Rock in Troubled Waters: "The coastal settlements around south Jersey's shores form a region of small communities that has managed to survive the war relatively intact. This is one of the more stable and lucrative areas held by MILGOV. This article provdes a detailed reference of the area, centering on the Intracoastal Waterway - the most reliable local avenue in the year 2001 - used by slow-moving military and civilian traffic. It is also designed to tie the Going Home module with any adventure set in the northeastern United States. A Rock in Troubled Water (set in early 2001) details and territory and notable clusters of civilization from the Delaware Canal and Cape Henlopen in Delaware, north and east across Pennsylvania and New Jersey to Perth Amboy. This includes Philadelphia, Trenton, Wilmington, Cape May Naval Base, Fort Dix, and Tom's River Naval Station. Also covered are the specifications on several "brown water navy" vessels, as well as the state government and militia system for New Jersey (as organized by MILGOV)." The Challenge magazine articles and mini modules for T2K were a huge resource of canon material (and they ARE officially canon). Discussions like the ones contained in this thread are likely to fall into two main divisions, those of people with the Challenge mags and those without. When I was running that part of my last campaign involving the PCs traveling from Norfolk to NYC A Rock in Troubled Waters proved absolutely invaluable. Other Challenge articles very useful for east coast play include Rifle River (covers Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island and has excellent details on a big chunk of the remnants of the USCG and the 43 Military Police Brigade), Pennsylvania Crude (covers a largely civilian operation to uncap an old Pennsylvanian oil well), and Strangers in a Strange Land (an excellent mini-adventure about a maurauder band made up of escaped WARPAC POWs roaming around New Jersey). They are all contained in the Challenge mag issues 25 to #50 (issue #50 contains a fantastic index of all the articles to that point). I haven't completed my own index of the issues past 50 yet and I don't have the time right now to trawl through them. There are probably other mini-sourcebooks and mini-modules relevant to this discussion contained in issues #51+. I would also direct your attention to the essay in Challenge issue #25 titled What Do We Do Now? which offers some great ideas about the choices soldiers returning from the Twilight War are faced with. The article Wilderness Travel and Pursuit contained in Challenge issue #28 is also very useful. Look, there are 55 T2K articles and mini-modules contained in Challenge issues 25 to 50. There are probably a similar number of T2K articles and mini-modules contained in Challenge issues 51 to 77 (the last one published). If you don't have this excellent source of T2K material then I can't urge you strongly enough to obtain them.
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli |
#9
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Although it can't realistically handle a large fraction of all of those troops, there are military convoys between Norfolk and Muskogee (Oklahoma), by way of Greensboro, Nashville, Memphis and Little Rock.
-Allegheny Uprising |
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My guess is that there might be only a dozen seats or so available on any one convoy. Much of the space would be taken up by stores, spare fuel, and escorting troops.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#11
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Check out chico's page. two years of work went into what he came up with.
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Good suggestion Law. Maybe you could post a link for the new guys? (I'm at work and don't have access to my 'favorites' list on my internet browser).
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli |
#13
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Quote:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/ and by the way, the illustrated guide to Krakow on that site freaking OWNS. Last edited by agrikk; 09-22-2011 at 05:24 PM. |
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Woah! When I posted this and received a "Amtrak" response, I though okay, cool. Amtrak. But then I came back to check and found 42 replies I was stoked! Thanks for the input, guys. It'll help a ton!
Quote:
I'm kinda partial to the Amtrak idea, simply because my players didn't take the Last Train to Clarksville and I always felt they missed out. My players will probably stick around Norfolk for a while before being organized into some kinds of special operations unit and running a mission to NYC to recover some gold. I think I am going to organize the returning troops into the reacivated and called up 77th Regional Support Command which has a mandate to support FEMA during "natural or manmade disasters", but in this case replace FEMA with MilGov under the soon to be lost 12th Corps. (Support insted of Readiness because it didn't get renamed to Readiness until 2003...). Of the 43,000, I'm going to say that around 15,000 make it to the shores of the US as combat effectives. The rest peel off to the Middle East or wherever and the rest are civilian staff, contrators and dependents. My plan is to use the 77th as a marker of the dissolution of the United States: the characters will leave for NYC as the unit is being formed as a full division but every time they return to Norfolk after weeks away, they see the 77th reformed as a brigade, then a handful of battalions under 12th Corps, then finally dissolving altogether upon being ordered to reinforce the 78th at Fort Dix. I am going to use this as a factor that ultimately dooms the 77th. It will never make it off the Norfolk enclave as a fighting unit as it is pulled apart to reinforce other units, convoys to Muskogee and desertions take their toll. |
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Unabashed Plug
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Still can't find Armies of the Night in my pile of stuff. Last edited by Chris; 09-20-2011 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Spell check fail |
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I always figured they would try to organize some new units around volunteers, and take a lot more and organize them to go home.
For instance, everyone from Maryland (pretty close to Norfolk) has the option of rapid demobilization, and will get delivered to their county seat. From there, they may be on their own to get home, but I would try to set up some kind of militia from the veterans to suppress marauders/bandits/New America once they settle down. Folks from Colorado, well, it's a long walk, are you sure you wouldn't rather be in the Regulars? I can't see Amtrak being much of a resource, as much as I love trains. If the infrastructure were still in good shape and there was fuel, sure. The railnet may be one of the first things to try to get running, IMO. What I can see would be big road convoys moving along the interstates to get to states further west. If someplace is not under control, then it might have to get bypassed. One of my inspirations is the soldier colonies the Romans used to pay off their veterans: you get land, but promise to keep your arms clean in case we need you (or your son, as the case may be). I think a lot of places are going to have to keep armed militias/sheriff's posses available for a decade or so.
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My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988. |
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I've now mostly completed my own index of the T2K articles contained in Challenge Magazine issues 51 to 77. I'll probably eventually include issues 25 to 50 because my index is a bit more comprehensive that the one contained in Challege issue 50 (I've included columns for a basic outline of the topic of the article, the type of article it is such as mini-module or new equipment for instance, and whether it's for T2K, Merc: 2000 or both, as well as issue number and page number).
The mini-module Westward Ho! in Challenge #57 is about a MILGOV-sponsored migration of the population of Jamesville, Kentucky to the outskirts of Memphis, Tennesee. So obviously during 2001 MILGOV was prepared to help move fairly large numbers of people around, for the purposes of consolidating and protecting loyalist populations (and moving people to areas where it is easier to feed them). I could definitely envisage arrangements whereby troops debarking in Norfolk might be encouraged to join local security forces (militia/police/sheriff's departments etc) engaged in protecting such movements of people, especially if the people being moved were from the same home areas as the troops being demobbed. The mini-modules The Lima Incident (Challenge #56) and A Little Recon Mission (Challenge #58) are linked and are set in Ohio. They involve the PCs being formed into a Special Operations Group by CIVGOV. In the first adventure the PCs are tasked with securing a very valuable prize in Lima, Ohio. In the second the PCs are sent to infiltrate Wright-Patterson AFB to gather intel on a MILGOV operation in Kentucky (also with a valuable prize at stake). I won't reveal the goodies in either adventure in case players read this (and I don't know how to set up spoiler commands in this forum!).
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli Last edited by Targan; 09-20-2011 at 12:59 PM. |
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I don't see them being tossed out on their ear. The members of the military, however, will probably find out when they get to Norfolk that there is no discharge awaiting them -- they've been indefinitely Stop-Lossed. Many won't happy with that and there will be a rash of desertions -- and those will be written off as a loss. There will be a hard press, especially with troops that have dependents, that staying with the military will be the best way to take care of themselves and dependents, and to a large extent, that will be true. That press will start off almost immediately upon leaving Bremerhaven; the interior walls of the ship will have a lot of posters and notes to that end, and they'll hear a lot of counseling to that end.
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
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Alot of Rail road equipment and infrastructure will survive too as it is based in small towns too. Rail would jump at the chance to become a people hauling entity again. There is something like 40 passenger cars in Puelbo sitting on a siding as it is not lucrative enough to run them. The is even an operating Steam Locomotive that runs just for fans, the Toltec - Cumbres line. |
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One of the main reasons I can see Milgov bringing people home for is to increase their legitimacy. 43,000 people who owe their lives to Milgov is a LOT of votes and they can count on about 99% of them should they be needed.
While it's true many of the troops will be retained in service, does the military really want to remain responsible for the crippled? What about the civilians and the foriegn nationals? Does the military really want to hang onto people who no longer have a military value such as UAV pilots? Some yes, but only the best of them. Milgov also can't feed that many people, and certainly can't transport them to Texas or Alaska where the war continues on a low level. Demobilisation in my mind is a better option than trying to hold on to everyone and instead loosing them all the desertion. Demobilisation strips away all the items of military value, desertion is a complete loss. Many veterans will be happy to jump at demobilisation too. They've been fighting for roughly five years, most without visiting home even once, and none with a word from their familiy in years. Staying in the military and being ordered to go places and do things they really don't want to do isn't going to hold a lot of attraction when they have no idea if home is still in one peice of a smouldering crater.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
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Rail recovery would be one of the primary goals in rebuilding America. It is the most effecient means of moving tonnage of all modes. Two persons move 5000 tons hundreds of miles.. vs 250 plus semi trailers on the interstate? While I love the steam operations, I think the emphasis would be getting the d-e engines working again. Steam is dead from lack of sufficient infastructure to readily support it, as well as the limited number of operational engines. Yes on area basis, they will be used, IF they have the perosnnel to operate and maintain them.. a whole new skill set that is a hobby now.. Fuel is still the critical point with any of the modes.. and for steam WATER is needed more often than fuel.. it takes at least six pounds of water per pound of fuel for a steam engine.. somewhere I have data on the consumption factor of steam engines, but they guzzled the water and fuel. Yes the coal and wood, or heavy oil, can and has been used, but that is intensive use of resources for other things too. Railroading is a whole game unto itself... BTW I was in the transportation corps as a traffic manager for the last five years of service. I was an instructor at the trans school during the end of steam in the military. They had a Consolidated (2-8-0) they fired up monthly and moved around post. Ft Eusits had a massive amount of trackage for it's size since the at one time trained military railroaders. I took a course and was awarded a 'war-time' mos as rail movements coordinator (fancy name for dispatcher, station agent, car clerk.. not the man that run the train, but told the train when it could run.. and interacted between the railroad and customers. About the time of T2K there were still two rail operations battalions in the reserves.. still are I think. During WW2 there were a score or more battalions, each sponsored by a civilian railroad actually. It's what I think would be the picture of American railroads in T2000. Done ramblin Grae |
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Sidetracking the discussion
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The two places MilGov will want to head to try to recover any steam locomotives are the Norfolk & Western's shops at Roanoke, VA and the museum at Strasburg PA. I can't recall if there was anything running from Roanoke in the late '90s, or if they had shut down by then. Sugar Creek in Ohio was running 4 steam locomotives in the last decade, but they've shut down in the last 5 years. As for the rest of the railnet, diesel-electric locomotives need fuel to run, I presume some shop modifications can be made to run them on alcohol? The all-electric Northeast Corridor will need a lot of juice and wire work-- if there's a power plant running, it can be fixed. Repairing any damaged rails is a bigger problem. I presume the railroads may have exhausted their stocks of replacement rails by 1999-2000, so you'll really want to get a steel mill working again.
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My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988. |
#23
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Chico and the DC Group addressed the demobilization issue essentially by claiming it wouldn't happen. We've had lengthy discussions about characters' motivations for staying versus leaving. We need to bear in mind that there is no precedent for the circumstances US military personnel find when they get home. Crispy as these critters are likely to be, they aren't going to get out of the service, go home, and sit by the window and drink for a year. As the first sergeant in the v1 rules remarks, this is worse than the A Shau (sp?) because this is everywhere. Where exactly do the demobilized types think they are going to go, and how exactly do they think they are going to get there?
All that said, I could see Milgov offering transport to New Jersey (thanks for bringing that up). Tens of thousands of relatively young and fit Americans who possess a variety of skills desperately needed by the society have a value beyond calculation. Let's be honest, too: the ones who do get out can expect to be drafted into the local militia wherever they go. Paul, I agree that the propaganda machine will be working overtime to get as many to stay as possible. These people are gold. Thomason of Fort Huachuca would love to get his hands on five hundred of them, but even I can’t imagine any way for that to happen. Deserters from Division Cuba have a better chance of reaching southern Arizona than OMEGA troops. Quote:
The idea of transporting veterans from Europe, addressed here and there in Howling Wilderness, brings up some questions. We know from Howling Wilderness that some veterans reach 78th ID in New Jersey. We know some reach the Milgov command along the middle Mississippi. This fact rather strongly implies that the Navy still has some ability to move men and supplies along the Atlantic and Gulf seaboards. I’ve always felt that the description of movement to New London, CT in The Last Submarine was overly dramatic. Fuel oil for small warships might be short, but surely the Navy would have gotten in the habit of “drafting” sailing vessels of all sizes fairly promptly after the TDM. Dropping a dozen men along the coast can’t be that hard for a sailing vessel (depending, of course, on the coast in question). The foregoing makes me think that the Navy must be maintaining a number of its bases along the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts as defended way stations, if we are to believe that traffic from Norfolk can reach Arkansas with any degree of reliability. There are some interesting implications in all of this. The Sea Lord of Jacksonville seems that much more of a problem in this light. He who can interdict sea traffic between the mid-Atlantic states and the Gulf is in a position to very seriously affect the future of the nation. Hm. Traditionally, I’ve thought of the Sea Lord as an interesting creation of no real consequence. Suddenly, I’m seeing him as a major threat in need of being dealt with. Perhaps we know what the first mission will be for those Omegamen who stay in the service.
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“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998. |
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It's a wealth of information on how MILGOV on the east coast organises things. There is some really good, specific info on the New Jersey enclave controlled by the 78th ID and also on the (really quite powerful) MILGOV assets operating out of Cape May Naval Base (formerly a USCG facility). The New Jersey State Militia is quite a powerful force and A Rock in Troubled Waters has pretty good descriptions of its size, capabilities and component units. The NJSG even has an armored rapid reaction force, the 2nd Cavalry Squadron, NJSG, 50 troopers operating 10 armored bank trucks. The article says "Under New Jersey law all males between the ages of 17 and 25 are liable for service in the state reserve militia, in the event the Governor declares an emergency. The NJSM will under no circumstances venture outside the state". The Cape May Naval Base is an amazing hub of military might (from a T2K 2001 perspective). It would take me too long to manually type it all out here but let me give you some examples of the resources the MILGOV commander at Cape May has at his disposal: * The USS Hyman Rickover (formerly the barkentine Gazela of Philadelphia, a sailing vesel with 3 tons of cargo capacity and mounting a 3"/54-cal pedestal-mounted deck gun, 2 x .50 cal HMGs, 2 x Mk19 AGLs and 2 x 81mm mortars; * USS Bigelow (DD942); * USS Confidence (WMEC 619); * 1 X ocean going tug, 4 x inshore patrol craft (PCF), 2 x Cape May/Lewes ferries, 2 x LCM 6 (expedient monitors each armed with 1 x forward turret containing twin-20mm Vulcans, a 20mm or 25mm AC and a Mk19, a midship weapons "bucket" containing an 81mm mortar and a pair of 7.62mm MGs, and a rear turret armed with either twin .50 cal MGs or a 5.56mm minigun/Mk19 combo), 2 x LCM 6 (expedient armored troop carriers), 8 x patrol boats riverine (expedient, 4 with sail/motor and 4 with motor); * 1 x 10,000-ton tanker (immobile); * The Red Dragons, a mercenary group of 100 Chinese-American refugees who were formerly a Philadelphia street gang, trained by a cadre of ex-military members (this group is fiercely loyal to the Naval Commander at Cape May and are used as an amphibious strike group); * Piseck Commando, 18 ex-SWAT members from the Philadelphia and New Jersey State Police (deployed as an amphibious commando unit reporting directly to the Naval Commander at Cape May); * 301st Independent Battery, 80 ex-military "graybeards" recruited from among refugees who operate 3 x M202 howitzers and 6 x 120mm mortars salvaged from NG and AR armories (provides fire support for CMNB); * B and C Flights, 112th Naval Aviation Squadron operating 3 x O-2 Cessna twin engine spotter planes each rigged with a 7.62mm MG and 2 x Bell 47G (ex-cropduster) helicopters (it specifically states there is sufficient fuel to fly these aircraft for critical support missions) operating out of CMNB; *HQ and A Flight, 112th Naval Aviation Squadron operating 2 x P-3 Orions and 2 x O-2 Cessna twin engine spotter planes (the P-3s are unable to fly due to a lack of fuel but are in flyable condition). I haven't included the extensive regular and militia ground forces at the CMNB commander's disposal.
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli |
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