Knives/daggers in the Twilight War

[B.T.]

In the last days I searched the forum for infos on knifes and daggers. And this was a little disapointing. We have threats on all kind of weapons. We even have threats, in which the board members can choose their most liked vehicle of the Twilight War. Lots of threats on all kinds of firearms, and more than one poll. But knifes? No, not one single threat, solely dedicated to knifes/bayonets/daggers.

In wars of the past, certain knifes have become some kind of iconic item of that war. Take, for example, the Fairbain-Sykes-dagger of the British commandoes in WWII, or the Gerber Mk II and the USAAF-survival-knife M1963 from the Vietnam-era. And lets not forget about the KA-BAR of the US Marines and the kukhri of the Ghurkas, seen on many theatres worldwide in more than one conflict.

The character-generation-chapter of the T2k rules (at least in Ver.2.n) says, every soldier receives a bayonet as part of the basic load. I've changed this a little: Players, rolling up a Marine PC, may choose, if they want to have a Bayonet, or a KA-BAR. And as I've mentioned on several occasions, I give a German character in the Bundeswehr an ACK.

Talking about bayonets: There are so many different designs. A US M9 bayonet can be used as field-knife, exactly like the ubiquitous AK-bayonets or the British L3 A1. And these, like the ACK, can be used as wire cutter.
The more dagger-like bayonets (as example the US M7 bayonet) work as weapon, but they are not as good as field-knife. And older bayonets of the spike-type are completely worseless as knife.

I'd like to know, what you think about this. Is there a knife/bayonet/dagger, that may be this iconic knife of the Twilight War? What kind of knife will be in service with some military unit? How likely is it, to find some extra-ordinary knife on the battlefield? How likely is it, that some knife will be fielded with US forces, like the "quartermaster-knifes" of WW II, omitting the bayonet? How is this handeled in other countries?

I think, a specific model could be very characteristic for certain NPCs, for example the former Westpoint-guy, now commanding one battalion of the 50th Armor Division, wearing the old Randall "All-purpose-fighter", that his Grandpa had with him in WW II and his Dad in the jungles of Vietnam. The knife of choice can put a highlight on the character.

So, any thoughts are appreciated.

[Mahatatain]

I think that, rather than a specific knife or bayonet, the Twilight War would see a reappearance of all kinds of small to medium sized melee weapons that can be carried as a back up to a firearm, in much the same way as the trench warfare of WWI prompted all kinds of trench knives, axes and clubs.

Sorry if that's not much help!

[headquarters]

I agree with Matahain who stated that a resurgence of melee weapnry would take place . ( As well as improvised weapons lik eblackpowder mortars etc )

I kindly ask you to consider these few items

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Melee/

regarding melee weaponry.

Frozen salmon is a favourite of mine. Not to mention the plaque mounted Marlin.

[copeab]

You'd likely see blades similar in function to the 'Serb-cutter'.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by copeab

You'd likely see blades similar in function to the 'Serb-cutter'.

Horrible - but I think that you're right!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

You'd likely see blades similar in function to the 'Serb-cutter'.

But that sort of weapon is specifically for the purpose of slaughtering large numbers of prisoners. If a character in a T2K has one of those, it is a grim sort of a campaign indeed.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

But that sort of weapon is specifically for the purpose of slaughtering large numbers of prisoners. If a character in a T2K has one of those, it is a grim sort of a campaign indeed.

It's a grim game, when you really think about it.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

But that sort of weapon is specifically for the purpose of slaughtering large numbers of prisoners. If a character in a T2K has one of those, it is a grim sort of a campaign indeed.

Targan, Targan, Targan...
Having read of the exploits of Major Po and his method of census collecting I believe your own campaign was pretty damned grim!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I agree with Matahain who stated that a resurgence of melee weapnry would take place . ( As well as improvised weapons lik eblackpowder mortars etc )

I kindly ask you to consider these few items

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Melee/

regarding melee weaponry.

Frozen salmon is a favourite of mine. Not to mention the plaque mounted Marlin.

And I command you to cut down a tree with a herring!

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I agree with Matahain who stated that a resurgence of melee weapnry would take place . ( As well as improvised weapons lik eblackpowder mortars etc )

I kindly ask you to consider these few items

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Melee/

regarding melee weaponry.

Frozen salmon is a favourite of mine. Not to mention the plaque mounted Marlin.

Thanks for the link... very interesting.. FB

[B.T.]

Now, what are knives used for, anyway? If we think about situations, where knives and other blade-instruments are used, we can think of these in several categories:

1. Preparing meals/kitchen duty
2. Field life/trecking/camping
3. Fighting

The majority of knives is intended for one of these situations. Additionally there is the broad category of specialised knifes, used in several trades or crafts (furriers, certain jobs in the production of papers, or the like - the "serb-cutter" originally was an agricultural tool!). Those are certainly not the knifes, that show up in an T2k-scenario on a regular basis.

The most widespread use of knives (pre-war, that is!) was certainly the preparation of meals. Big kitchen knives, like carving knifes, could also be used as a blade for fighting, but they are not intended for that use. The most kitchen knives are very sharp, but they loose their sharpness pretty quickly.
There are plenty of them around and such knives would be "very common".

Fighting knives, on the other hand, are intended to take some amount of rough handling, but these are not suited to be a big help in the kitchen (Ever tried to peel a potato with an Fällkniven A1? Hm, it works, but any smaller and finer blade is better! Yes, I know that the Fällkniven A1 is not intended as a fighting knife, but it has a similar blade.).
Fighting knives are relatively rare in the Western European states, at least in the hands of civilians.

And if we have a look at the dagger, it's getting even worse - you can not cut with the majority of daggers. Their overall geometric form is just not good for that.
Daggers outside the military are there in Europe, but in several states they were banned. I think, those would be "scarce" in the sense of the T2k rules.

I think, the most useful kind of knife would be a camp knife* or hunting knife ("sheath knife" is, what my dictionary gives me, when I searched for the German term "Fahrtenmesser" - there seems to be no English equivalent!). All the duties of living in the field can be solved. And if the knife has a certain weight and a more massive blade, it can even be used for hacking/chopping (chopping branches off a tree, and the like) or digging (a gutter around your tent, for example). Skinning of animals can also be done. These knives may not be the best fighting knives, but they would do the job!
Knives of this kind are pretty widespread in (continental) Europe and could be rated as "common" or even "very common".

The aforemantioned swords, sabres and so on would exist, but I doubt, that those would be in widespread use. Some individuals could use them, but it would be (from my personal point of view) the exception from the rule. Swords, katanas, cavalry sabres and weapons like these are long and encumbering. Not a good thing, wether you are dismountig from a vehicle or creeping through some bush-land.
Allthuogh HQ is right, when he points out, those weapons are there, I would still say, they would be rare to find.

Still another category of knives should be mentioned: folding knives! Knives like the Swiss Army Knife, or one-hand-folding knives (tactical folders?) are very useful in special situations. I think, they are mediocre fighting knives, but they are a big help in the kitchen and in situations, where you do not need a more massive blade (Opening card-board boxes, peeling potato/slicing vegetables, cutting plasters/patches to size (very useful in 1st aid!), and similar tasks. And let's not forget about the zillion-million multitools, be it Leatherman, Gerber, SOG or whatever manufacturer. All these small devices are certainly a big help. IIRC those where not in widespread use in Europe in the early 90ies and would be rare and much thought after in the T2k universe.
All of these are (again from my personal point of view!!!) not usable as weapon.
Pocket knives are a very common item, multitools would be "rare" or "scarce".

Now, to come to a point: As far as I know, most soldiers get a pocket knife as part of their personal equipment. The majority of "soldiers" (In the broadest sense of the word.) would have a field/utility/hunting knife with them. Those lucky few, who get a M9-bayonet or similar designs, will propably try to keep hold of it. From all I've read, it seems to be a usable knife. A bayonet of the dagger- or spike-type would not be of great value for the majority of soldiers.

One thing should not be forgotten: The AK-bayonets! These have one advantage: They can be used as wire-cutter. From all I know, the steel of the blade is quite soft, so it is very hard, to sharpen such a blade. But as they are part of the basic kit of most East European soldiers, there would be a big quantity of them (In game terms they are "very common".). I can imagine, that some people take one with them, just because of this wire-cutting-ability. It is not that heavy, but it's lousy (when used as a knife!).

The average soldier would have at least two blades with him: Pocket knife and a bigger knife (Depending on the situation, personal preference, the availability of items, and the allowance to pick up non-military items this would either be a hunting/utility knife or a military fighting knife or bayonet.). Whoever had the chance to pick one up, would have a multitool with him.
Specialised characters (the experienced hand-to-hand fighter or armed-melee guy) would, maybe additionally, have a commando-dagger or a pair of throwing knives with them. I don't think, that would be the norm.

One last point: Several tools have been mentioned earlier. I think, a lot of people would use axes, hatchets, folding spades, E-tools, and various kinds of clubs as weapons. But non of these can replace a knife. While you can chop or digg (on a limited basis) with a hatchet or a khukri, you can not ... peel a potato with an axe!

More than 2 cents this time. I hope, I did not go over the top with this posting. Any critics and thoughts are welcome. And thanks for reading this rather lengthy "omnibus volume" ...


* I don't even know, if this is an English term, but Gerber sells a knife, that is called "Big Rock Camp Knife".

[Legbreaker]

I'd say your post sums the situation up very well. In game terms then you really only need stats for the three categories rather then separate, individual blades. There are of course some exceptions to the rule though such as the plastic knife in the Special Forces book. Knives are useful in combat, but firearms of all types are used about a thousand times more often, even by PCs.

[weswood]

As far as knives go, my vote is for the Marine Corps K-Bar. I've used mine for everything from prying open and nailing closed wood crates, skinning & butchering deer, and general camp chores like clearing saplings and cutting rope. Thank God I've never had to use it for combat, though.