Falkland Islands

[Schone23666]

It seems the Falklands are in the news yet again, after all this time. Anyone's who's been following has probably noticed the war of words (so far) between the UK and Argentina over this set of islands.

I guess this raises the question, in the Twilight 2000 world, would Argentina have made a second go at the Falklands? While there's certainly the matter of pride (or hurt pride) on both sides of the aisle, I would suspect one reason Argentina is making a fuss over the Falklands now (besides both the timing of various events, the anniversary, and the bump Kirchner is getting in the polls) is the potential presence of oil and natural gas deposits in the area, along with the local fishing grounds. Both are going to be pretty important in a post T2K world, and I can't see either Argentina, the UK or any other country ignoring that. Last I read, there is at least one American oil company along with several UK oil companies now exploring/drilling the region, much to Argentina's chagrin.

This also raises another issue...how much capability did Argentina have at the time in T2k? And how much of a capability do they have now in real life militarily?

[Legbreaker]

I can recall seeing somewhere that before Chile and Argentina got into it against each other, Argentina did in fact invade the Falklands again, but were forced out to defend on the mainland.
The UK were in no position to stop them coming and didn't have a lot to do with seeing them off again either (except perhaps sending a few harsh words their way).

I can't recall where I saw it though, but I'm convinced it's canon (V2.x anyway).

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I can recall seeing somewhere that before Chile and Argentina got into it against each other, Argentina did in fact invade the Falklands again, but were forced out to defend on the mainland.
The UK were in no position to stop them coming and didn't have a lot to do with seeing them off again either (except perhaps sending a few harsh words their way).

I can't recall where I saw it though, but I'm convinced it's canon (V2.x anyway).

Pretty sure you're right...I think it's in the section towards the back the BYB that describes the global situation. I don't think it's mentioned at all in V1 other than a reference in the Survivor's Guide to UK about a Battalion of Territorial Infantry being sent to bolster the island's defences but that's about it.

Schone, there have been a couple of previous threads about the Falklands which you may find of interest...

Here...

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...ight=Falklands

And here...

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...ight=Falklands

[Schone23666]

Ah, thanks for that RainbowSix, I missed those threads. I just thought it felt relevant to raise it up again since the Falklands are once again an issue, apparently.

However, Avantman42 did list a series of incidents that show this is hardly an old issue:

1903: Argentina acquires administration of a meterological station in the South Orkney Islands, and claims it as evidence of a transfer of sovereignty throughout all the Falkland Islands Dependencies
1927: Argentina asks the International Postal Union to accept Argentine jurisdition over all the Falkland Islands Dependencies
1947: Argentina issues stamps for use in 'Malvinas and Dependencies'
1960: UN Resolution 1514 calls for an end to colonialism; Britain lists the Islands as a colony and Argentina objects
1964: An Argentine pilot lands a Cessna 172 on Stanley racecourse, plants Argentine flag and hands over letter declaring Argentine sovereignty
1966: Aerolineas Argentinas DC4 lands on Stanley racecourse after being hijacked by 20 terrorists calling themselves 'Condors' who take 4 Islanders prisoner but surrender after 1 night
1966: Argentine marines dropped off at night by submarine Santiago del Estero to reconnoitre potential landing beaches near Stanley
1968: Small private plane with 3 Argentines on board, sponsored by Argentine press, crash-lands in Stanley
1973: Newly-elected Argentine Peronist government renews sovereignty claim in the UN
1975: Air travellers from Falklands now required to obtain clearance from Argentine Foreign Ministry (all air travel to/from the islands is via Argentina)
1976: British Antarctic Survey ship RRS Shackleton fired-on by Argentine gunboat
1976: Argentina sets up illegal and clandestine military base on Southern Thule, a Falkland Islands Dependency situated south of South Georgia
1977: Argentine sailors land on the island of Morrell in the South Sandwich Islands, claiming they are undertaking scientific research
1977: Britain secretly sends a nuclear submarine and two frigates to the South Atlantic in response to Argentine preparations for naval 'manoeuvres' which then halt
1981: Argentina protests to UN over lack of progress on sovereignty dispute

All the above happened before General Galtieri's junta seized power in Argentina.


Hmm, seems familiar, doesn't it?

The Falklanders have stated their desire to remain under the Union Jack though, haven't they? I've heard of various opinions on the Argentine side about "what to do with the Falklanders" if the islands became Las Malvinas ranging from just letting them continue to live under the Argentine flag (though somehow I don't think it would go over that smoothly) up to "forced relocation" (which I don't think would go over well at all).

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

The Falklanders have stated their desire to remain under the Union Jack though, haven't they?

Correct. The Islanders' wishes are that the Falklands remains an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom.

[waiting4something]

Yes! This I was wondering this too. The Falklands was like the U.S.A.'S Grenada. Over in New YORK minute with the Cold War, 1980's mentality, and cool pre rail gun weapons.

[Legbreaker]

The difference being that the Falklands actually were invaded by an unwelcome foreign power and it was up to the UK to expel them.
In Grenada, the US were the invaders and their actions were condemned by the UN.
The similarities were that both were over in a relatively short space of time and the assaulting force (UK and US) were technolgically and militarily far superior to those they faced, but the same could really be said of the Nazi invasion of Poland....

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The similarities were that both were over in a relatively short space of time and the assaulting force (UK and US) were technolgically and militarily far superior to those they faced.

The technology point is arguable. For example in '82 the British only had a few dozen sets of night vision spread out over their 8 battalions in theater while the Argies had hundreds. They weren't outmatched technologically as one might think, the British were just better soldiers.

[Legbreaker]

The British did however have much newer ships and planes. The men on the ground may have had similar equipment, but the same could probably be said of US troops in Grenada - it's not like today when every man is loaded down with electronics.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The British did however have much newer ships and planes. The men on the ground may have had similar equipment, but the same could probably be said of US troops in Grenada - it's not like today when every man is loaded down with electronics.

Ships yes, but even though no Harriers were lost due to air combat, only ground fire and accidents, the Mirage was a credible threat. The Cubans in Grenada on the other hand didn't even have air support. Most of the ships that were lost were not from the modern exocet but free fall iron bombs too.

I will agree that it isn't like today where the soldier has so much reliance on technology. The battles in 82 were about men and rifles.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The British did however have much newer ships and planes. The men on the ground may have had similar equipment, but the same could probably be said of US troops in Grenada - it's not like today when every man is loaded down with electronics.

Fusilier has already mentioned how big a threat the Mirage was (particularly with the extra Exocet missiles the French reputedly sold the Argentinians after the war had started ) but I have read somewhere that the British ground troops preferred the FN FALs that the Argentinians were armed with to the SLRs they were armed with and that some of them "swapped".

I've also read somewhere that the British troops were armed with a lot more AT weapons which they used against fixed positions. The basic difference in the ground war was really the training and (therefore) quality of the troops.

[Schone23666]

To any and all our fellow U.K. readers and players, I've been following Sean Penn's latest antics and how he's waded into this international dispute. I'd like to apologize on American's behalf for this turkey who stars in turkey films, who clearly had no business getting involved in this dispute in the first place.

[RN7]

FALKLAND ISLANDS
Status: British Overseas Territory
Language: English (Spanish widely understood)
Geography: Located in the South Atlantic Ocean with a land area of 4,700 square miles comprising two main islands and 776 small islands.
Climate: Maritime Subarctic, similar to the Shetland Islands of the North Atlantic but with less rainfall and colder winters.
Population: 3,100
History: Well we all know about it!

DEMOGRAPHICS
Of the 3,000 plus population over 90% are of the usual ethnic British mix (English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh), including British military and contract workers and some of Gibraltarian origin. Among the native Falklanders there is also some French and Scandinavian ancestry. There is also a significant Chilean minority, a few Argentines and Japanese and a number of people from the other British Atlantic territories. Most of the population is of various Christian denominations, and the largest town is the capitol Stanley with a population of over 2,000. Despite Argentine claims to the contrary no Falklander has shown any desire to become Argentinean any time soon.

ECONOMY
Traditionally dependent on sheep farming and fishing, the Falklands War totally transformed the economy. Tourism, commercial fishing, communications, transport and construction, diversified agriculture and servicing the defence forces have given the Falkland Islands the highest standard of living in South America. Commercial shipping fleets from Japan, Spain, South Korea and Taiwan as well as native fishing vessels are granted licenses from the Falklands Fisheries Department and intensively fish within Falkland waters. Significant and exploitable oil and gas reserves are known to be present within four sedimentary basins located around the Falkland Islands, of which three are firmly in Falkland Islands waters and claimed by Britain.

INFRASTRUCTURE
Before the Falklands War there were no paved roads outside of the Stanley, only tracks. By mid-2000 there was nearly 500 miles of paved road network. There is no rail system in the Falklands, a former track north of Stanley harbour was closed in the 1920’s. There are two main seaports, Stanley in East Falkland and Fox Bay in West Falkland, and a ferry service operates between Port Howard and New Haven on both main islands. Outside of RAF Mount Pleasant the Falklands has only one main airport at Port Stanley Airport which has two asphalt runways. Since 2003 flights to Argentina have been suspended and scheduled flights to the UK and Chile are undertaken from Mount Pleasant. Internal flights to 26 landing fields across the Falklands are still maintained by the Falkland Islands Government Air service whose five BN2B Islander aircraft are based from Port Stanley Airport. The British Antarctic Survey also used Port Stanley who’s Dash 7 and four Twin otters are used for flights to British Antarctic bases at Rothera and Halley and other bases in Antarctica and South Georgia. The British Antarctic Survey also operates a research ship and a logistic supply ship who frequently call at the Falklands.

MILITARY

Falkland Islands Defence Force
Locally funded volunteer defence force which works with British forces. Basically a well funded and supported militia with high quality training and equipment and British military leadership.
Strength: One company of over 200 personnel when mobilised with British Territorial Army standard training.
Role: Light infantry, with reconnaissance, amphibious and logistic support roles.
Weapons: L-7 7.62mm GPMGs, Steyr AUG 5.56mm assault rifles, Browning L9A1 9mm pistols, AG36 grenade launchers. Various military and civilian sniper and hunting rifles also used.
Vehicles: Land Rovers, civilian vehicles, motorbikes and quad bikes.
Other Equipment: Rigid inflatable boats.

British Army
The British Army maintains a small garrison unit in the Falkland Islands of a roulement infantry company, an engineer squadron, a signals unit, a logistics group and supporting services based at Mount Pleasant. Total strength at any one time is about 500 personnel. Standard British small arms are used plus a few heavier weapons such as M2 Browning’s, mortars, and possibly anti-tank missiles and man-portable SAM’s in stock. Vehicles include Land Rovers and some trucks. During the early part of the Twilight War when the war was going well for NATO and before the UK is nuked it is probable that the Falklands garrison was reinforced with extra troops and stocks of heavy weapons, such as towed light artillery guns and possibly a few light armoured vehicles such as Scimitar etc. At the very least it is likely that the original Army units plus additional war stocks would remain in the Falklands during the Twilight War.

Royal Air Force
The RAF presence in the Falklands is centred on RAF Mount Pleasant, which was heavily developed after the Falklands War in 1982. Mount Pleasant has two asphalt runways (2,590m & 1,525m) supporting RAF aircraft and helicopter operations. Four Tornado F.3s were rotationally based at Mount Pleasant until they were replaced by Typhoon’s in 2009. A VC-10 tanker, a Hercules transport and two Sea King helicopters are also based at Mount Pleasant, as well as two civilian operated Sikorsky S-61’s. Scheduled flights to London and Chile are maintained from the air base, as well as less frequent flights to RAF bases in the UK, Ascension Island and to other locations in the Falklands. Mount Pleasant also houses a joint communication unit for electronic warfare and command and control systems for the Army, Royal Navy and RAF, and a battery of Rapier SAM is maintained by the RAF Regiment. According to any article I have seen about the RAF in the Twilight War the Tornado F.3 was kept in the UK throughout the war in Europe until the later stages as it was a long ranged interceptor rather than an agile tactical fighter, and the small size of the RAF force in the Falkland’s may have led to it remaining there throughout the T2K conflict, as four combat jets and a few support aircraft would not have made any difference to the outcome of the war in Europe.

The presence of the Tornado F.3s would also be a major deterrent to Argentina. The F.3 is derivative of its bomber cousin and has a two hour CAP endurance without drop tanks and a combat range at sub-sonic speed of over 1,000 nautical miles. It is also very fast and can reach speeds of well over Mach 2. It carries eight air-to-air missiles and a 27mm Mauser cannon, and has ten hardpoints for 19,800 ibs of ordinance, and the Argentine Air Force has nothing that can handle it.

Royal Navy
The Royal Navy has a port facility at Mare Harbour adjacent to RAF Mount Pleasant. At this time one Castle Class Patrol Vessel with a helicopter flight deck, 1x 30mm gun and capacity to temporarily support up to 120 troops is based in the Falkland Islands, and there is also a small Royal Marine presence. A missile destroyer or frigate and an ice breaker/fleet auxiliary are assigned to the South Atlantic Patrol to protect British interests in the region including the Falkland Islands. British nuclear attack submarines are also regularly sent to the region. In the T2K period the Castle Class patrol vessel is likely to be still in the Falklands, although other ships may have been withdrawn to the North Atlantic. However the remote and untouched location of the Falkland Islands would also be an attractive option for naval commanders and the surviving British government, and it is possible that a few major British warships could be held in reserve in the Falklands.

ASSESMENT
Without even looking at the Argentine military it is clear that they retain the capacity to invade the Falkland Islands with a large and functional army, air force and navy, although I doubt their military capabilities have increased much or at all since the Falklands War. However the Falklands are infinitely better prepared for an Argentine invasion than they were in 1982 and they and the British government would be expecting it. Reinforcement from Britain after the UK is nuked will be limited or non-existent, but even in the Twilight War it would be difficult for Argentina to invade and they would be facing a thousand well armed and motivated British troops and natives. RAF Tornado F3s in the Falklands would also be a major deterrent to an invasion as they would be to powerful for the Argentine air force to deal with, and would create havoc on any Argentine naval force heading towards the Falklands if armed with anti-ship missiles. If the British have a nuclear attack submarine in the South Atlantic; and I suspect that at least a few British subs will survive the war, they could be in Falklands waters in days and you can forget about the Argentine navy getting involved.

[Adm.Lee]

I've read a bunch on the 1982 war, and I have no arguments with any of the above statements.

I will say that "Sharkey" Ward's book, Sea Harrier over the Falklands was a fantastic read.

[James Langham]

An interesting BBC article on the current Rw position:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17157373

[RN7]

Originally Posted by James Langham

An interesting BBC article on the current Rw position:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17157373

A good assesment of the current balance of power in the Falklands Islands and the relative capabilities of Argentine and British forces. British forces in the Falklands are much stronger than they were in 1982 and Argentina just doesn't have the hardware to pull off an invasion.

Mount Pleasant guarantees the defence of the Falklands Islands, and it could be reinforces within 24 hours from Britain via Ascension Island and inflight tankers. If Argentina decided to become militant about with Hugo and Fidel throwing in their support four ships would probably be enough to deter them. A nuclear submarine and a Type 45 in the South Atlantic and another sub and Type-45 in the Carribean would put an end to any hostile air and naval manouvers. The Type-45 can track and take out anything they have flying, and despite having a published armamant of 48 air defence missiles the unofficial figure may be closer to 100 missiles.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by James Langham

An interesting BBC article on the current Rw position:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17157373

More on the current RW situation - two cruise liners were apparently denied entry into Argentina because they had stopped at the Falklands. I bet the local Argentinian tour guides were pissed off that their trips were cancelled!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17184955

[RN7]

Interesting article about a planned British special forces raid on the Argentine mainland during the Falklands War that was cancelled at last minute. The SAS were supposed to have been active in Argentina during the war reconnoitering Argentina military movements but this would have taken things to a new level.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...e-mission.html

[RN7]

In slightly more detail and including some information about Britains deperate attempt to stop Argentina getting more Exocets..

http://www.eliteukforces.info/articl...us-exocets.php

[Targan]

Those were great reads, RN7. Thanks for posting the links.