canon versus non-canon in a non-supported game

[Olefin]

My two cents and you can take it for what its worth or not

I know that many people arent comfortable with the idea I have raised of ignoring Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped and saying that they dont make sense with the rest of the established canon - but I think a lot of people are missing the point

It would be one thing if we were talking about a supported game that was still issuing modules, with Challenge magazine still golng on and new stories coming out all the time -

But that isnt the case - Twilight 2000, no matter what version is now only supported by its fans and the last of its diehard players

And those two modules were the tail end charlies of the line - i.e. there isnt a whole bunch of material afterward that has to be thrown out if you throw those two out - and while there is stuff with later dates its almost all either set in Europe or the Middle East- or its so generic that whether or not the uber drought happened doesnt mean much to affect the story - City of Angels for instance works both with and without the uber drought, so does Satellite down for that matter

As for 2300 AD and its timeline - it is so generic in many ways that it really doesnt matter if the drought happens or not - you can still acheive it

And as I said earlier today canon is what you make of it - in our game we killed the Baron in Ruins of Warsaw - so there goes Return to Warsaw. We gave the Madonna to Stark who turned it over to the Polish Free Congress - so there goes White Eagle.

For the Last Boomer we didnt take the long trip thru New England - our GM said he couldnt believe that MilGov would lose a submarine - so all we did was the part where the torpedoes have to be grabbed and in our case it was not just torpedoes but six operational Harpoons and spare parts to get so that the Corpus Christi could not only do the Med cruise but also drop off parts in Israel to fix an American SSN that was stuck there because it needed parts to make its reactor functional again.

And those games, while differing substantially from what some say would be canon were very very fun.

Frankly I wish my GM had never picked up Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness and lost interest in the game. (As he said he didnt want to GM an Aftermath game). And the Return to Europe modules were no good for us because of what we had done earlier.

And frankly no one was interested in doing a reboot - so the campaign died.

So the lesson from this - if the game was still supported officially I would be right there saying follow canon as much as you can because otherwise you may just paint yourself into a corner one day (or have to have Bobby be in the shower for a year like Dallas did or have Fonzie jump the shark)

But if its unsupported and you feel like changing canon - as long as its fun and the players have a good time then go for it. There are some here who may not like that you do that - but unless they are your players or your GM dont worry about it and l cant wait to hear about what you come up with.

As Gary Gygax said - canon is in the hands of the Dungeon Master and the players that enter his world. Dont let canon stop you from having fun.

[Legbreaker]

As I've stated many times, canon is a base we can all work from. Individually we can cherrypick whatever elements we like and change what we don't, but as a community we should always respect the published materials.

If we want to write additional materials in the hope others will also use it, we MUST respect canon. If we're just writing materials for our own individual use and posting it here for comment and constructive criticism, then the author must not appear to be thrusting it down other peoples throats and declare it's the "only way it can be".

An example of a good body of non-canon work is (as I've always said) Webstrals Thunder Empire. Personally I'm not about to use it as it's seriously different to how I see the situation, but that doesn't make it any less interesting to read. Web has also NEVER thrust it down anyone's throat, but always presented it as his alternative reality. He incorporates many canon elements, and builds on it, never once arguing that any part of canon must be ignored by everyone, or saying the writers of the canon materials screwed up.

How would the writers feel if they were to read some of the comments denigrating their creations (which were obviously good enough for GDW to publish as official)? Are they really any different to any member of this forum?

As a last note, we are lucky to number a few of the developers from GDW amongst our members. They're not particularly active, but they're here all the same and do on occasion make comments and suggestions.
So, an unsupported game huh?

[Raellus]

Recently, I posted the following in another thread here. I think it bears repeating, though.

I wish folks would stop putting forth their version of the T2KU as the best, most realistic, most accurate, most real-world, most historical, most whatever, etc. Everyone who's played with the T2K setting probably thinks that their version is the best. Saying so just starts drama.

It would be nice if we could all come to a consensus on this, but that's just not going to happen. Whether it be T2K "history", gear, settings, modules, whatever, there's going to be variance and disagreement. You say G11, I say HK41. Why argue about it? Unless we're playing together in the same campaign, it's not going to matter one bit. Although I used to enjoy these intellectual debates, too often, they turn into shouting matches and pissing contests. We lost a few members and our site admin the last time we opened this Pandora's Box. Maybe I'm a little gunshy, but I can see this "discussion" drifting into treacherous waters again... [emphasis added]

We need to go Hindu here. Any version of the T2KU is welcome on this site. If you want to put forth your own version of T2K, that's cool. Just try to stay away from value words and judgments. That just ends up starting crap. By the same token, if you don't like someone else's T2KU, don't use it. There's no need to tell people why you think it sucks. Live and let live.

I think that we can apply this simple practice to published materials as well as home brewed stuff. Ripping published materials is not particularly helpful, nor is it respectful to the creators. I've been critical of published stuff before, and I've been critical of user-created stuff too. I've been on the other side as well. I've seen the light. Unless someone asks for constructive criticism, you really don't need to say another critical about another's work. Once again, if you don't like it, change it, or don't use it at all.

T2K is for everybody. Take what you like, add what you want, and leave out what you don't.

[95th Rifleman]

My rpg background is pretty varied. My first rpg was world of darkness (vampire dark ages), I've played DnD (2nd, 3rd and 3.5), shadowrun, call of cthulu, cyberpunk and a fair few others.

One thing I've always learned is that a good dm/gm/st uses established canon as a guideline and evolves the game and the game world based on what the pcs do. I've had the blessing/curse (it's a double edged sword) to play with groups who always equip themselves with the talisman of plot-hook avoidance +5, every possible way to screw with publised material has been explored and it makes it more fun. None of us like being pigeon holed into a published adventure and I tend to write my own plot anyway as it's easier to adapt.

In short, canon is not the be all and end all, you get 10 of us in a room and you will get a dozen versions of this game. I'm all up for discussing alternate canon, but as mentioned, it needs to be done calmly, rationaly and with an attitude that there is no ONE way to run/play this game.

[Legbreaker]

I'm all for throwing the books out the window when it's just your own small Saturday evening groups of half a dozen or so, but this forum has a membership of 500+ and growing daily.
Canon gives us all a common ground to work from.

My earlier post in this thread forgot to mention the Twilight:2013 developers who are active here. Once more, while official materials aren't being written and published any more, we do still have input from those who created the whole thing in the first place. That to me sounds very much like it's supported.

[Rainbow Six]

I normally try to stay out of what I think of as "political" threads, but after stewing on this one for some time I'm making an exception.

From where I'm sitting it rather feels as though several of the comments in this thread are aimed in my direction, specifically with regard to my Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK.

For the record, yes, I have criticised the canon material on the UK in the past. I still feel justified in making those criticisms, and would be more than happy to have discuss them with the original creators should the opportunity ever arise. I'm certainly not about to apologise for putting my views forward in what I think has always been a polite manner. If anyone can recall an occasion when my comments have been rude or ill tempered perhaps they could draw my attention to the post in question.

Secondly, I think I've always been very clear from the outset that I'm not even playing T2K any longer, so my work has always been something I do for fun...nothing more, nothing less, and which I enjoy sharing with others in the hope that at least some may find the work to be of interest. If anyone does find it of sufficent interest to actually use any of the material, then frankly I'm flattered, but again I would be grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of any post where I've ever said "it's the "only way it can be"." or "thrust it down anyone's throat".

Maybe I'm overreacting here, but no one (apart from possibly my fiancee) knows how much work I have put into that project (and continue to do so), so I think I'm entitled to feel defensive about it when relatively sweeping statements are being made. I think right now I can understand a little of how Chico and the others felt.

[Legbreaker]

RS, what you have shown us so far is very well done and you have justified every change you have made. When others have commented you have calmly (and even gratefully) taken it on board and where necessary made adjustments or reassessed your ideas and assumptions.
For me it's a pleasure to read every word.

You are right in saying you have never forced your views on anyone here, effectively detailing your reasons for diverging from the original book and even incorporating some of it into your own work. To me, what you have done, and continue to do is the right way to go about developing and presenting an alternative. I look forward to the day you combine it all into one large publication and call it complete (doubtful you'll ever be able to stop tinkering though!)

[simonmark6]

I seriously don't think there's any veiled criticism of your work Rainbow, or of anybody's effort. I have read your input and value it and you have always presented it as your version of the alternate reality rather than anything that should be considered canon or better than canon.

I have no problem with any different versions and indeed I enjoy reading them even if I disagree with them. Sometimes, the method of delivery is more difficult to swallow than the actual work and this is what can generate tension.

I'd like to see any debate about a non-canon issue limited to a single post followed by a single rebuttal from the original poster. After that let's agree to disagree and move on for the sake of sanity if nothing else. All of us have a certain entrenched feeling about the game or we wouldn't still be working on it after twenty odd years: no-one is going to win an argument on this forum so it's probably best to stop debating.

On a personal note, I value everyone's contribution to this forum even though some people irritate me sometimes (yes James, I am talking about you including James Bloody Blunt in canon: that's a executable offence in my book), and I would hate to see anybody lost because of acrimony.

Maybe this format would be best:
1) Post an opinion
2) Anyone who wishes to comment does so once
3) The poster can post one rebuttal then move on after having agreed to disagree
If people desperately want to continue a debate, take it to PM.
Arguments on this forum leave everyone poorer and nobody wins.

As for my original reason to post, don't take it personally Rainbow, I'm pretty sure no one is trying to have a dig at you. It's easy for me to be sanguine as none of the work I'm doing on the TK2 universe is out there for debate but I think you're right: you're too emotionally close to your work and seeing brickbats where there are none.