Olefin's Twilight 2000 Universe thread

[Olefin]

Will be putting some things here as to how things differ from canon in my Twilight 2000 Universe as compared to canon. Remember this is strictly my opinion and also campaign experience and used for my campaign only and is presented here only for discussion and to represent one way the game could play out.

Have said before several times why I dont use Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped in my campaign because of why I dont feel the drought it presents is realistic - especially as both of them seem to show survivors of the 1997-98 events in the US not having much in the way of food in early 2001, even though they would have had to be planting and harvesting for several years already just to be alive to that point (canned food and harvest from 1997 time frame would have been gone by 1999 at the very latest so either a lot of agriculture is already going on or they would be dead before both modules even started) and unless you are a really bad farmer you should be able to stockpile some food - no farmer worth his salt has nothing left in reserve

However the other reason I dont do it is because the US military basically falls apart due to desertion and apathy in those modules, with only about 2000 or so men from the 43000 who returned to the States being used as reinforcements and the rest just "going over the fence" some night or being released from military service.

I dont see this as realistic for several reasons (oh by the way I talked to several active duty and retired military personnel, both enlisted and officer on this issue and this represents their inputs)

1) The US is still in a state of war with the Soviet Union and its allies and Mexico. That means that if you are in the military its for the duration. You would only be released if you were physically unable to do duty that could help the military.

2) The US itself is under military law, either CivGov or MilGov in nature. Again if you are in the military in that situation you are in it for the duration.

If you desert you get shot - period. if you try to desert you get shot - period.

3) The United States is under occupation in southern CA, AZ, NM and south and central Texas by foreign invaders as well as in Anchorage AK. The US military, whether under CivGov or MilGov, wouldnt be releasing soldiers until those invaders were driven off - period. Anyone who ordered US troops released while enemy forces were on US soil and thus weakened the ability of the US to drive them out would be seen as a traitor and again

you get shot - period

4) The United States, if you play New America or if you only have marauders in place, has many places either in a state of anarchy or outright rebellion against the central government, whether it be MilGov or CivGov in nature. Such a rebellion and anarchy would need to be put down - so again failure to send in military forces to put this down is treason in time of war and....

you get shot - period

5) While many units disintegrated during Going Home many others came home intact. Those units, with intact command structures and unit cohesion, would be sent out to either fight the Mexicans or the Soviets or New America.

they include

3rd US AD – 5000 men - pre- war regular division

28th ID – 1000 men - National Guard

4th US MD – 1000 men- pre- war regular division

1st US AD – 4000 men - pre-war regular division

3rd US MD – 5000 men - pre-war regular division

6th US ID – 2000 men - pre-war regular division

38th US ID – 4000 men - National Guard

278th US ACR – 400 men - pre-war regular ACR

thats 22,400 men in organized units with their officer, NCO and unit cohesion intact - seven divisions and one ACR and two intact Army HQ orgs to command them (of which only two are Guard units)

even if you say the Guard units would desert that still leaves 17,400 men in regular units

Thats the kind of force that takes back Texas from the Mexicans and drives them out of Los Angeles and San Diego and makes short work of the New Americans in the Ozarks.

6) This isnt Vietnam and these men arent draftees. Most of them would be regular volunteer military who would be very patriotic and very much for defending their nation no matter what. Those men would never abandon their units and their country and let foreign troops remain in control of US soil while they still lived.

And there is no way that 22,000 men all die in "shipping accidents" or are "too wounded to be able to serve"

And thats just the intact units - I didnt include the ones that broke up into mobs because those units are the ones that wouldnt be ready to be put into the fight as soon as they got home. But the others would.

7) The US is still engaged in a hot war with the Soviets in the Middle East, one that they just sent 6000 men to. So more men could be sent there too - and again deserting a unit being sent overseas is desertion in time of war and ...

you get shot

8) CivGov still has an intact army in Europe - one that needs reinforcements. So any men who defect to CivGov could be sent to Europe. Oh you dont want to go? See above.

Now remember this is in my universe only and is not in any way an attempt to challenge the overall canon of Twilight 2000. However it is based on what the US military became by 1996 in reality which apparently is not what the authors based their US military on - which appears more to resemble a draftee army in how it is handled, at least in my opinion. Note I said in my opinion only.

Not all modules or sourcebooks are used after all by all GM's or referees and everyone's campaign universe is free to diverge as they see fit (as ours did by our own actions which made several modules moot by what we did during it)

And I didnt say they stay together forever - frankly once the last Mexican soldier is back across the Rio Grande I can see them saying ok now can we go home? But not before.

Oh and for the record - I dont apply these remarks to the light divisions that basically did get drafted in 1997 and 1998. They would have small cadres of professional soldiers and draftees and reservists to round them out. Those units could have large scale desertions as could the National Guard units as well in some cases (but remember these weekend warriors are now experienced combat vets). But not the regular military units.

Again my two cents on how my campaign universe differs from canon.

[Olefin]

And again let me say for the record that this is only about my campaign and how I have both played it and ran it and how I would be writing for anything I would put up here as to a sourcebook or module for people to use as they please or ignore if they are not pleased.

but in no way am I implying that this is any more right or wrong than the canon itself or any one's particular campaign or interpretation of the canon

and I am in no way, shape or form trying to pick any kind of argument - just presenting how things are different in my T2000U versus others for information only and hopefully good informed debate and discussion as is the heart of any good forum

[James Langham]

Logical points, I actually agree with many of the points.

My major divergence is that you are assuming the Army is regular (nice distinction on the later units), I instituted the draft early in the war (with a VERY abbreviated training regime). This radically changes the character of the Army.

A few other observations for discussion:

* what percentage of the returning bodies are actually non-combatants, probably not that high but that will reduce the figures a little?

* is there enough of a logistics base to support the new units? In your version probably there is. In mine probably not.

* could troops returning home be thinking, "that's it now, I've done my share." From memory the Texas module implies they don't know what is going on there. Finding that out when they get back might make a difference but I guess that combat weariness and the thought of being the last US soldier to die might not do much for morale...

[Greylond]

Good thread. None of the campaigns that I GM'ed or played in years ago lasted very long in the USA. We always started with Kalisz and usually went a different direction from there. I think only twice we went to Krakow. My longest run campaign had the PCs make it back to the USA by recovered/repaired AN-12 that crashed over northern Virginia. That group went to Armies of the Night and we didn't do much with it after that. Although I read through Going Home, I never GM'ed or played in it. Most of the time our groups ended up staying in Europe. IIRC,

However, I did notice that, IMO, the quality of the research and writing of the modules went down a bit after Armies of the Night. Things like the OP says about releasing/discharging members of the military and some technical issues.

[Olefin]

"My longest run campaign had the PCs make it back to the USA by recovered/repaired AN-12 that crashed over northern Virginia. "

I like that Greylond - now that is an inventive way to get home!

[Greylond]

Yea, it would be a very long story. Summary, awesome scrounge rolls, 3 months repair/modification time, lots of battles. In the end a true heroic effort with an emergency parachute drop at the end. They did end up with a lot more equipment than your usual group, which was the justification for them being sent to NYC...

Don't mean to threadjack you though...


Like I said before, most of the TW2K stuff was really good but once the published stuff got a campaign back to the USA, IMO, the research that was done and the technical aspects steadily got worse. Maps weren't as well done and a few other things.

[WallShadow]

Olefin:
You mentioned elsewhere that you were in close proximity to, if not actually working with the M88A2 Hercules ARV--that would be in Spring Grove, right? IIRC, United Defense -York was also dealing with the M109 SPH upgrades about that time. Following the TDM, what do you think of the probability of some UD employees and their families grabbing an M109, a couple of M88A2s and a couple of M992 Ammo Carriers (designed for use with the M109 and produced at UD-York IIRC), loading them up with whatever they could scrounge, and hauling ass westward? What with the confusion and heavy drain on manpower, would security be degraded enough at that point? I was thinking that the South Mountain Restoration Center would be a possible place to hold up--limited access by road, secluded on a hilltop in the midst of low mountains, surrounded by an insular population, and having a fairly extensive self-sufficient structure. However, I don't know what you'd do with all of the mentally-ill patients there.

[Olefin]

its a real possibility - in my timeline the military leaves a small guard force there to keep guard on the equipment there along with some of the employees and their families (we have a lot of ex-military here) who raise food within the security perimeter of the factory and keep an eye on it. They have a few vehicles that they use to keep the place secure and eventually MilGov, after Omega, puts the factory back into use as a depot to repair equipment and finish the assembly and reconditioning of as best as they can.

Considering the timing they were also switching work on Bradley's (both Reman and Reset) to that plant and would have been producing the M8 Armored Gun System (i.e. the Buford).

So you could add a Reset Bradley and a Buford as well to your mix - they wouldnt have had ammo for them (we dont keep ammo here) or 50 cal MG but otherwise they would be fully operational. So if your guys can find ammo they can use them for sure.

[HorseSoldier]

Running for the hills in AFVs isn't really ideal -- comparatively major fuel consumption and specialized maintenance requirements to start with, to say nothing of the likelihood of any military or law enforcement contact likely to become confrontational. A running five ton full of supplies is going to be more of a score, in terms of military vehicles, for refugees than an AFV until you start getting into situations where organized opposition requires serious firepower to get any maneuver room.

[Olefin]

All depends on how far you have to run with the AFV and what you may be defending with it. If its the last working oil or water well in the area you may have a lot of people who want what you want - and an AFV, even one that is basically stationary, is a heck of a deterrent if all they have is shotguns and civilian rifles.

[Olefin]

(This area of the timeline is how my GM and fellow players went thru Red Star, Lone Star and then back to Norfolk. Remember the Christi as my GM played it was still in USN hands as mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main. As you can see things began to change from canon with how he had the US Army reorganzie after Omega. The MilGov attack on the 228th was before he got his hands on any of the modules that had this unit in it and thus changed them significantly)

Dec 21, 2000
MilGov puts into effect a plan to evict CivGov from their enclave in the Fort Meade area. The soldiers of the 228th Infantry Brigade and the CivGov administrators at Fort Meade found themselves surrounded by the 3rd Mechanized and the 38th Infantry Division. The Brigade is ordered to stand down and surrender or face annihilation. Only one battalion resists and takes over 150 casualties from artillery and tank fire before it surrenders.

While its senior officers and NCO’s were arrested, the more junior ones and the troops were given a choice between prison and swearing loyalty to MilGov. Not surprisingly with very few exceptions they took the loyalty oath. The senior officers were tried and convicted of failing to heed a direct order to bring their brigade under MilGov control and subsequently executed on January 5, 2001. The brigade’s personnel were put into the general reinforcement pool and its units disbanded, with its weapons and equipment issued to loyal MilGov units.

The CivGov government officials at Fort Meade were arrested and sent to work camps in the Norfolk area. Interrogations of these officials revealed information about possible cache’s of supplies in western PA. With this action MilGov control expanded into Maryland.

Late Dec 2000 – early January 2001

The strike team arrives in the Corpus Christi area and meets up with the DIA agent. After debriefing the team stakes out the marauder base at Corpus Christi including getting two men inside by having them taken prisoner. A revolt among the prisoners is staged coinciding with an attack by the team which successfully overcomes the marauders leading to the capture of weapons and several functional vehicles including two M113APC’s, six jeeps, two HMMWV squad carriers and two trucks as well as the head of the marauders, Grady LaMarr.

Under interrogation he reveals the operation going on at Brownsville and at Gulf Forty. The team splits with the DIA agent and a small group going back to the Christi to get news of this to MilGov while the rest heads south using the captured transport going by way of Padre Island, joined by some 35 freed prisoners who agree to assist the team.

Overcoming resistance along the way the team arrives at Port Isabel and takes it from its marauder defenders, with the captured APC’s being a key reason for the victory. The team digs in and prepares to defend the area from marauders, turning back two probes and then a larger one from both land and sea that almost succeeds, with most of the freed prisoners who joined the force dying in the assault.

On the evening of the 2nd day they are reinforced by a force of 30 men from the 4th who tell them they have seized Gulf Forty and the rest of the division is arriving in 36 hours. Another enemy assault, this time with APC’s and trucks, is broken up using explosives, RPG’s and Molotov cocktails to knock out the vehicles as the team uses hard learned urban fighting skills from Europe against the mostly Novice attackers.

After hearing panicked reports from captured radios of Soviet forces attacking Brownsville the force in Port Isabel prepares an ambush for any Soviets attacking them, which occur within hours. The Soviet BTR-70’s are destroyed within seconds by RPG’s then the team plus its reinforcements and the two APCs’, now mounting HMG, engage and destroy the rest of the force.

The Soviets in Brownsville attack again but by then the 4th has landed and their vehicles are no match for the small force of M60 tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles. They dig into Highway 100 and all the approaches to Port Isabel. The seriously depleted team is sent back on the Christi to Norfolk as the rig begins to pump oil to the captured refinery.

January 9, 2001

The 85th Infantry Division is moved by ship to reinforce the 4th Mechanized Division at Port Isabel. With the Soviets having destroyed the Mexican and marauder forces in the area the US forces are able to occupy Brownsville with no resistance. At Norfolk a small task force of the John Hancock, another destroyer, two empty tankers and four Omega ships is put together to carry the 43rd Infantry Division along with 3 M1A1, 3 M48A5 and 2 Bradley AFV and 500 replacements to reinforce the bridgehead in Texas using almost all the remaining oil at Norfolk in the process.

January 16, 2001

Soviet Division Cuba and Brigada Tampica attempt to take Port Isabel, launching an assault with over 1500 men, 8 tanks and 12 APC’s. The desperate attack, having to go down a narrow neck of land, is stopped well short of the city as the tanks and APC’s, without room to maneuver, get chopped up by the US tanks and AFV’s. A tattered remnant of five tanks and APC’s and 400 men retreat to Harlingen and dig in. The MilGov forces lose less than 100 men in the attack.

January 20, 2001

Texas

The 43rd Infantry Division and the replacements arrive, bringing the 4th back up to 1000 men and the 85th to 500 men. They are reassigned to the CXXII U.S. Corps. Most of the native Mexican population of Brownsville has fled back in Mexico.

Pennsylvania

The 28th Infantry Division moves to the Shrewsbury, PA area and establishes a base camp in preparation for operations in PA.

(We used to get regular intelligence briefings from our GM as part of the game we were playing. Again these posts are from the notebooks he kept of our game and its progress.)