This is welcoming home the troops?

[dragoon500ly]

This is not a political rant, simply an article that I saw on the DailyMail UK website that I thought merited a mention...

It concerns a British infantry battalion that had returned from its tour of duty in Afghanistan, these soldiers had done a magnificent job and had suffered the loss of sixteen brave comrades. Upon their return, they were awarded the freedom of their city and marched in a parade, celebrating its final tour of duty. After the parade….several of the squaddies decided to stop at a local pub, only to be told that the pub would not serve military personnel. Needless to say, this was not a very popular decision, especially with a battalion of soldiers, their families, was well as the citizens of the Borough of Havering.

The owners of the pub later made a statement apologizing for the incident and advising that the team members involved have been “retrained” and that “The Bull” proudly supports England’s military.

One is reminded of something written by a chap named Kipling….

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

With the deepest respects to our Cousins across the Sea!

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

Hopefully this was just a misunderstanding, and nothing more. But if it wasn't...

Couldn't have said it better, Mr. Kipling.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

How long until the spitting starts?

[dragoon500ly]

You know, there has always been a lot of debate about the spitting on returning veterans during the Vietnam War. You hear the story, and there are members of the former Peace Movement who state that they did this....

But taking to numerous buddies at the VFW....more than one has stated, that "if any of the peaceniks @&(*$@%$@! SOBs had spit on me, they would have woke up on the floor!"

Needless to say, the next time I have to travel to England, I'll be making a point to stop by this place and tell them that I will not be using their fine establishment!

If veterans dont support each other, rest assured, the damned civilians won't!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.

Where this ties in to what you'd said is that most of the vets I do know who did go and then returned for multiple hitches did it to keep the faith with their fellow soldiers - because the perception was nobody at home cared.

(note: I've only known 3-4 Vietnam vets, so I recognize the second paragraph is probably statistically insignificant, and I am not trying to speak from a position of authority)

[Legbreaker]

With regard to Australian Vietnam experience, although we had conscription at the time, only those conscripts who volunteered (after being conscripted) for overseas duty went - all others served within Australian borders, most (if not all) within the reserves.
Regular, career soldiers on the other hand didn't get a choice (and rightly so - they chose to be soldiers in the first place).

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The owners of the pub later made a statement apologizing for the incident and advising that the team members involved have been “retrained” and that “The Bull” proudly supports England’s military.

That is a lesson in how to alienate customers......

There is such a thing as bad PR.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.

I didn't know this. Very interesting!

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.

"Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War " by James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi has the best research that I've seen on the so-called "Black Army" myth.

Their viewpoint is that the notion that the Vietnam War was fought by a "Black Army" was a myth created strictly for the political purposes of the anti-war movement.

Historically, Afro-Americans have been kept out of the military due to racism. When they were allowed to serve, they were placed in support services. Even at the height of World War II, black combatants numbered less than3% of the total manpower committed to action. When President Truman issued his order ending segregation in the military in 1947, these numbers began to change.

During the time in question, Afro Americans numbered between 10 and 12% of the total population, during the years leading up to Vietnam, the percentage of Afro Americans serving in the Army climbed to 17%. They were most visible in the volunteer specialties, such as airborne, who would receive additional pay for hazardous duty (thus resulting in the press reports of all-black platoons of paratroopers).

During the first two years of serious American involvement (1964-66), Afro Americans comprsied reoughly one fifth of those killed in action. Losses were particularly heavy among the NCOs. As the draft started to impact the military, the percentage of troops who were black fell, as more whites were drafted, or volunteered for the draft. Throughout the Vietnam War, the racial distribution of combat dead was this:

Whites 86%
Blacks 12.5%
Others 1.2%

Going by the numbers, the Afro-American population did not make up most of the Army and certainly, "all black" units were not the norm during the war.

After the Vietnam War, the numbers had changed yet again, with whites forming a substantial majority of the combat units while nonwhite troops were volunteering for the support services (and better access to technical training). By the 1980s, the military raised its educational qualifications for enlistment, thus making just about everyone eligible for technical training. Many recruits who would never have been able to afford to attend college used the military to gain access to higher levels training, thus putting to an end the often repeated refrain of "dying for the white man" to rest.

At least until the Gulf War.

There the media picked up on the laments of the anti-war movement that "black soldiers would suffer disproportionate losses." The Pentagon was quick off the mark pointing out that the situation had changed, but the media ran with their "story".

[Snake Eyes]

Figures there was more to that story.

[simonmark6]

It's happened several times: six Royal Welsch Fusillier pallbearers were turned away from a pub where they tried to get a coffee after burying a comrade who had been killed in Afghanistan. I think the whole thing is wrong with some sort of lee way given to Publicans and troops.

My opinion is that if you trust the troops enough to risk their lives to defend us, you trust them enough not to get pissed in uniform and bring the service into disrepute. The MOD is a grown up ministry however and I suppose they have their reasons.