Odd Military Facts....

[dragoon500ly]

Sarah Barnet Belcher, of Taunton, Massachusetts, USA is rather notable because no less than three famous personages of World War Two were her descendents.

As a result of their common ancestry through this woman, General Douglas MacArthur was an eighth cousin of Prime Minister Winston S. Churchill, and a sixth cousin of President Franklin D. Roosevelt....

And a tip o'the hat to "Dirty Little Secrets of World War Two"!

[WallShadow]

yeah, sure, but where does she fall on the "degrees of Kevin Bacon" scale?

[HorseSoldier]

Sarah Barnet Belcher, of Taunton, Massachusetts, USA is rather notable because no less than three famous personages of World War Two were her descendents.

Making her the most famous resident of a New England town named after weird kangaroo/dall sheep hybrids from the planet Hof?

[Canadian Army]

The UK Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm used the Fairey Swordfish, a biplane design commissioned in 1936. It would have been helpless against enemy fighters (like most of the war's torpedo bombers), but it had an advantage against enemy AA: WWII rangefinders couldn't predict the flight path of anything that slow. Thus, attacks by Swordfish sank much of the Italian Navy in its home port of Taranto, and crippled the Bismark in its breakout attempt in the North Sea, both times with negligible British losses.

Nazi Germany assumed, at the beginning of the war, that horse cavalry were obsolete, but by 1942, they'd changed their minds. Infantry were too slow to catch Cossacks and mounted partisans, and tanks couldn't enter rocky ground and forests (which cavalry certainly could); the result was about ten divisions of German cavalry.

During the early stages of World War II, the Norwegians sank the heavy cruiser Blücher with weaponry which they'd bought decades before, and which was obsolete even then. The Norwegian commander wasn't sure that his fifty-year-old torpedoes would even work. They did.

Some Taliban snipers in Afghanistan use British Lee-Enfield rifles (or locally manufactured copies), which were designed in the 1880s and used in both World Wars. (A basically similar weapon chambered for NATO-standard battle rifle ammunition was in use by the British Army in the same role until relatively recently.) Their Iraqi counterparts prefer its Nazi rival, the Mauser Kar.98k (designed in 1935, as a cut-down version of the Mauser Karabiner model 1898).

In the Falklands War, the British took a WWII field kitchen truck from the Imperial War Museum and sent it along with the Task Force sent to fight off the Argentines, since there was no modern equivalent that could prepare hot meals in the field. This relic field kitchen even managed to land on East Falkland — which Argentina had already evacuated — before the Parachute Regiment, who had been tasked with retaking it.

Before they had their own defense industry (i.e., the Yom Kippur War and all previous conflicts), the Israelis relied on upgraded, surplus tanks. In the Yom Kippur War, they defeated state-of-the-art T-55s with heavily upgraded Shermans — proving that in the right hands and with the right modifications, even a thirty-year-old design that was never any good in the first place can defeat state-of-the-art technology.

During the Cold War, a squad of of SAS commandos were tasked with defending an Omani fort when they were suddenly attacked by hundreds of Communist guerrillas. In desperation, a couple of the SAS soldiers rushed over to a nearby shed that housed an antique WWII era anti-tank gun. They managed to get it working and it proved to be the deciding factor in the fight, buying them enough time for reinforcements to arrive.

During the Soviet war in Afghanistan, the mujahidin found that Stingers were not very useful (despite a few early successes), and preferred to fight Hinds with WWII AA guns.

The standard weapon issued to the Canadian Rangers (the militia force based in the Arctic) is the Mk 4 Lee-Enfield, first produced in 1939 and out of service with the regular Canadian military since the 1950s. The rifles are being replaced beginning in 2015...with another bolt-action rifle. The only reason the Mk4 is being replaced at all is that spare parts are running out.

The Soviet Union kept using vacuum tubes in its bombers long after the development of transistors, since vacuum tubes are resistant to EMPs and many kinds of electronic counter-measures (ECM).

During the initial stages of the Israeli War of Independance in '48, the Israeli supply situation was so bad that they even used Napoleonic-era, muzzle-loading cannons.

Blackburn Buccaneer a.k.a The Banana Jet. It was designed in 1954, and outlasted its all intended successors in both FAA and RAF use. It was finally withdrawn in 1994, because the airframes were too stressed to keep flying safely.

In the Korean War, North Korea used sea mines dating back to the Russo-Japanese War. (In fact, they're still using them.)

Most of the North Korean military carries equipment dating back to the 1970s or earlier. The forces deployed to defend the capital have more recent gear, but that's about it. Reportedly, some of their reservists don't even have firearms, and carry bladed weapons.

In 1807 the Ottomans loaded some giant cannons that had been collecting dust since the fall of Constantinople almost four centuries earlier and used them to repel a British attack on the Dardanelles. It worked.

The four Iowa-class battleships have been mothballed, and recommissioned, twice. And Congress wouldn't let the navy get rid of them completely, until the early years of the 21st century. All four are now gone, but are now literal museum pieces, as they have been made into floating museums (the Iowa in Los Angeles, the New Jersey in Camden, New Jersey, the Missouri in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and the Wisconsin in Norfolk, Virginia). After the release of Battleship, Slate ran an article positing whether or not it would be possible to return the Iowa-class battleships to active duty now that they're museum ships. It would actually be very easy, assuming that enough crew, fuel, and ammunition for its main guns are on hand for that.

The Korean People's Air Force has a small number of relatively modern fighter jets, including the MiG-29. They also operate many older airplanes. Including around thirty MiG-15s, as in the fighter jet they flew in the Korean War, although their remaining MiG-15s are all trainers.

The Antonov An-2 Colt transport, the smaller Russian cousin to the equally universal DC-3; is hard to pick up on radar, is so slow that modern fighters have trouble engaging it with guns, and it can take off and land from improvised air strips, making it an ideal commando or officer transport. For the same reasons, around ten are also used by the South Korean Air Force. Outside of the two Koreas, even smaller European countries like Estonia, Moldova and Macedonia also operate the An-2 as a paratrooper plane. And while fighting the Serbs in the early 1990s, Croatians even used them as improvised bombers to take out Serbian armoured vehicles and fortifications. While one or two were shot down, the plan worked.

Suggested but averted by Benjamin Franklin during the American Revolution. The Battle of Bunker Hill ended with them being driven off when they ran out of ammunition. Franklin suggested that if they had used bows and arrows, they could have held out longer and fired off volleys more rapidly. It may be possible that this referred more to the fact that at the start of the Revolution, the colonists were desperately short of gunpowder. At one point, there were literally only a few dozen barrels left for the entire army, which would have been just enough for one pitched battle without artillery. The situation did improve later on, when France became heavily involved in the war and started sending over regular supplies of the stuff.

English officers had been proposing this on and off throughout the 18th century. Trained longbowmen couldn't be beaten for sheer volume of fire until the introduction of breach-loading mechanisms and metallic cartridges; the catch is the "trained" part.

The first operational SR-71 was retired to the National Museum of the United States Air Force in the 70's, only to be put back into service for 20 years and permanently retired in 1990. But perhaps the retirement was premature, since the plane broke an air speed record on the way to the museum.

When British firefighters went on strike in 2002, the Army was called upon to provide cover. They made extensive used of "Green Goddess" fire engines, built in the 50s and mothballed in the late 60s. The law has now been changed so in a future strike, the Army would have access to the fire brigade's equipment, and the Green Goddesses have been sold to developing countries.

The Italian Air Force used the F-104 until 2004 in spite not only of the extreme age of the design (the airplane was first flown in 1954, with the Italian F-104S version being manufactured between 1964 and 1979) but of its tendency to crash. It helped it was actually faster than the more modern F-16 that had been considered to replace it in the 1980s...

During Homeland War, some Croatian units used M4 Sherman tanks and US WWII M36 Jackson tank destroyers. They proved effective in infantry support.

Some navies keep old 7.62mm chambered rifles on board in addition to standard 5.56mm for resupply at sea evolutions. The reason? The 5.56mm blank cartridges are unable to propel the line far enough to reach the other ship.

The Finnish Army Field Kitchen, m/29 Soppatykki (Soup Cannon). Originally designed in 1929 for horse-drawn troops and be used with firewood, it is still in production, adapted to be towed by lorries and smaller motor vehicles. The redesign, m/85, is merely an incorporation and documentation of all changes and improvements on the original. Several of the WWII veteran field kitchens are still in use.

[HorseSoldier]

Suggested but averted by Benjamin Franklin during the American Revolution. The Battle of Bunker Hill ended with them being driven off when they ran out of ammunition. Franklin suggested that if they had used bows and arrows, they could have held out longer and fired off volleys more rapidly. It may be possible that this referred more to the fact that at the start of the Revolution, the colonists were desperately short of gunpowder. At one point, there were literally only a few dozen barrels left for the entire army, which would have been just enough for one pitched battle without artillery. The situation did improve later on, when France became heavily involved in the war and started sending over regular supplies of the stuff.

English officers had been proposing this on and off throughout the 18th century. Trained longbowmen couldn't be beaten for sheer volume of fire until the introduction of breach-loading mechanisms and metallic cartridges; the catch is the "trained" part.

I'd put the tipping point at the widespread switch to rifled muskets in the 19th century, but otherwise agree with that assessment -- weapons like the long bow or traditional Japanese bows outperform gunpowder weapons in a lot of ways for a couple centuries after matchlocks and then flintlocks become common place on the battlefield. The two edges firearms have is the noted comparative ease of getting good with them and that I believe there's something that inherently appeals to human being's inner monkey about being able to unleash thunder and lightning on our enemies.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

human being's inner monkey about being able to unleash thunder and lightning on our enemies.

That goes back to flinging poo at enemies.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

The standard weapon issued to the Canadian Rangers (the militia force based in the Arctic) is the Mk 4 Lee-Enfield, first produced in 1939 and out of service with the regular Canadian military since the 1950s. The rifles are being replaced beginning in 2015...with another bolt-action rifle. The only reason the Mk4 is being replaced at all is that spare parts are running out.

I've got two of the Mk3's here, re-barrelled and optimised for long distance shooting. Now if only I could find the time to get to the range, or a clock tower, whatever....

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

...I believe there's something that inherently appeals to human being's inner monkey about being able to unleash thunder and lightning on our enemies.

mmmm, big bang good!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

Some Taliban snipers in Afghanistan use British Lee-Enfield rifles (or locally manufactured copies), which were designed in the 1880s and used in both World Wars. (A basically similar weapon chambered for NATO-standard battle rifle ammunition was in use by the British Army in the same role until relatively recently.)

In the Australian Army too (until the 1980s IIRC).

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

During the Cold War, a squad of of SAS commandos were tasked with defending an Omani fort when they were suddenly attacked by hundreds of Communist guerrillas. In desperation, a couple of the SAS soldiers rushed over to a nearby shed that housed an antique WWII era anti-tank gun. They managed to get it working and it proved to be the deciding factor in the fight, buying them enough time for reinforcements to arrive.

I believe this Badass of the Week article tells the story of the battle to which you refer: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/takavesi.html

[dragoon500ly]

The West Point class of 1915 is nicknamed "The Class That Stars Fell On". Of the 164 members of this class, 61 attained the rank of general:

Two reached the Rank of General of the Army (5 stars): Eisenhower and Bradley

Two reached General (4 stars); 7 reached Lieuteant General (3 stars); 50 reached Major General/Brigader General.

The first one to reach general rank was Brigadier General Luis Raul Esteves of the Puerto Rican National Guard (1939)

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

In the Falklands War, the British took a WWII field kitchen truck from the Imperial War Museum and sent it along with the Task Force sent to fight off the Argentines, since there was no modern equivalent that could prepare hot meals in the field. This relic field kitchen even managed to land on East Falkland — which Argentina had already evacuated — before the Parachute Regiment, who had been tasked with retaking it.

What's the source for that? I have no idea whether or not a WWII field kitchen was taken to the Falklands, but the Argentines certainly didn't evacuate East Falkland - that's where almost all of the land fighting took place.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by avantman42

What's the source for that? I have no idea whether or not a WWII field kitchen was taken to the Falklands, but the Argentines certainly didn't evacuate East Falkland - that's where almost all of the land fighting took place.

Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/funfill...ie/8054258957/
or http://www.freewebs.com/29thfieldkit...rmycookers.htm

[headquarters]

About the sinking of the Blücher - the main guns of the fort that were used were 280mm German built guns from around the turn of the century / around 1900. The torpedos were of Austrian -Hungarian type and fired from a battery from 1901. Also a lot of AA guns and other shoredefense artillery were used although these caused damage the " 3 major damage results " came from the old guns and the torpedos. Reportedly a forums members grandad had some information about the event:
The reservists manning the shore batteries were teachers, carpenters, farmers ages 20 - 40 and raw recruits of 18-19 years, they were shocked by the ferocious action, and their positions were unsustainable due to enemy fire and the encircling German infantry. In front of their positions was the pride of the Nortseeflotte burning and thousands of German sailors and troops were alterantely burning, bleeding or sinking to their deaths. ( ranges were relatively short - a few hundred meters to a couple of clicks). Overhead were the Luftwaffe and news of German landings everywhere came through the radio. In short it was time to hightail it. In Norway in 1940 this meant using public transport. They hopped on the local train to Oslo, and as they arrived at the station they were promptly rounded up by a company strength Wehrmacht welcoming party who had gotten there before them. Fearing the reprecussions of the Germans the men shakingly gave their names and ranks. They were asked at gunpoint if they had taken part in the action zat had sunk ze BlÜcher..JA? We knof zat you did ja! Fearing the worst many still admitted that they had taken part. The Germans - in a typical methodical and übercorrect manner took their names and interred them in a school gynasium. Shortly after they were made to sign a statement on their honour that they would never take up arms against the Reich again and let loose. In short they were let go with a stern warning to "never do that again"!

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

During the early stages of World War II, the Norwegians sank the heavy cruiser Blücher with weaponry which they'd bought decades before, and which was obsolete even then. The Norwegian commander wasn't sure that his fifty-year-old torpedoes would even work. They did.


During Homeland War, some Croatian units used M4 Sherman tanks and US WWII M36 Jackson tank destroyers. They proved effective in infantry support.

I inspected a few weapon caches and ammo dumps in Bosnia. Many had green spam cans of US marked ammo of various calibers. At one facility we found US made mountain howitzers from WWII. Allied gear from the war was prolific. ( We even found Italian WWII machineguns - poor sods having to use those).

[HorseSoldier]

During the Vietnam War, soldiers serving in the central highlands found the weather pretty chilly (40-50 degrees Farenheit). Troops sometimes found themselves in the field or remote outpsots without their normal sleeping gear. The more hardened types would improvise a sleeping bag out of the "Pouch, Human Remains", better known as a body bag. Those who used the body bag reported to it was reasonably cozy.

There was some drama and minor scandal about guys doing the same thing in the lead up to the ground war in '91, after some news stories about it made it into print.

[Medic]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

The Finnish Army Field Kitchen, m/29 Soppatykki (Soup Cannon). Originally designed in 1929 for horse-drawn troops and be used with firewood, it is still in production, adapted to be towed by lorries and smaller motor vehicles. The redesign, m/85, is merely an incorporation and documentation of all changes and improvements on the original. Several of the WWII veteran field kitchens are still in use.

There is the newer Kenttäkeitin 2000 (Fieldcooker 2000) in existance with an oven you can actually bake pizza in, but it s more delicate and requires electricity while the older models are heated with wood.

Also, while serving as a conscript, my mess kit, as it turnes out, was originally stamped in 1944. Not to mention the pistol holster I received for the Honour Guard I was a art of in the summer - it had the Third Reich eagle on the back with manufacturer, which was a German company...

Edit: one more thing remembered. The recently retired Tarkkuuskivääri m/85 (Sniper Rifle model 85) was born, when the Finnish military desperately needed a new one to replace the venerable Mosin-Nagant based rifles. A number of rifles were considered, but the one that won was a rifle, built of a custom stock, bull barrel and... A Mosin-Nagant action, some of which were stamped around the beginning of the century. But having fired that particular model quite a number of times, I can attest to its capabilities.

[Canadian Army]

The Eggnog Riot was a riot that took place at the United States Military Academy in West Point, New York, on 24–25 December 1826. It was caused by the smuggling of whiskey, two days prior to the incident, to make eggnog for a Christmas Day party in the North Barracks of the Academy. The riot eventually involved more than one-third of the cadets by the time it ceased on Christmas morning. A subsequent investigation by Academy officials resulted in the implication of seventy cadets and the court-martialing of twenty of them and one enlisted soldier. Among the participants in the riot—though he was not court-martialed—was Jefferson Davis.

[Snake Eyes]

Any mention in any of those weird fact sites about an Allied destroyer or submarine being sunk by a shore-based German tank off the Atlantic coast of France during WWII? We covered that incident in a high school history class but I'll be dammed if I can find a source for it.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

Any mention in any of those weird fact sites about an Allied destroyer or submarine being sunk by a shore-based German tank off the Atlantic coast of France during WWII? We covered that incident in a high school history class but I'll be dammed if I can find a source for it.

Couldn't find that specific incident but I did find some others in a similar vein at ww2aircraft.net
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2...gate-2415.html
Of particular interest in that thread is the British submarine HMS Safari that attacked a German transport ship unloading supplies on the coast of Africa. Allegedly one torpedo was fired and missed the supply ship but travelled up the beach and hit a German tank. While I can find details of the German supply vessels attacked, I can't find any references to the tank story except for the wikipedia entry and a Russian website that appears to have copied the wiki entry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Safari_(P211)
http://www.royalnavy-nf.org/viewtopi...4e1&view=print

However, there is a 1999 book about HMS Safari called "Crash Dive" that "may" shed some more light on the alleged incident.
http://uboat.net/books/item/2003

[StainlessSteelCynic]

During my search for my post above I came across another piece of information that I think definitely fits into the "odd" part of our military facts.

The USS Density (AM-218) served the USN in the Pacific theatre as an ocean-going minesweeper. She was placed in the reserve fleet in Galveston, Texas in January 1946 and was decommissioned there in March 1947.
Like so many other WW2 ships, being released from naval service didn't end her career.

She was sold to Greek interests as a cargo ship in 1955 and renamed the MV Manoula. In 1964 she was impounded in Miami, Florida for non-payment of harbour fees but later that same year she was bought by other interests and renamed MV Galaxy.
In November 1964 she arrived in British waters were she began broadcasting as Radio London - one of the pirate radio stations operated outside territorial waters to, so it's claimed, circumvent the record companies' control of popular music broadcasting in the United Kingdom and the BBC's radio broadcasting monopoly.

When the pirate radio stations were closed down by the British government in 1967, MV Galaxy sailed for Germany. She tied up in Hamburg harbour in anticipation of another stint as an offshore radio station.
The deal fell through and MV Galaxy was transferred to Kiel harbour and sunk as an artificial reef in 1979. Concerns about pollution saw her raised from the harbour floor for breaking up/disposal in 1980.

So MV Galaxy, the former MV Manoula, former USS Density, a combat-tried ocean-going minesweeper built for the USN during WW2 (with several successful engagements against the Japanese), ended her days tied up to the Kilian bunker, a former Kriegsmarine U-boat base.

Some history here
http://www.offshoreradio.co.uk/odds21.htm Pirate Radio hall of fame page
http://uboat.net/gallery/Kilian-1/ Images of the kilian bunker in Kiel
http://www.uboat.net/flotillas/bases/kiel_bunkers.htm The U-boat bases in Kiel (with a brief section about U-170 providing electricity for the bombed Howaldtswerke yard - interesting in light of The Last Sub modules)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Density_(AM-218) Wiki history of USS Density
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderful_Radio_London Wiki history of Radio London

[dragoon500ly]

During the Sicily landings, German panzers were subjected to a ten minute "shoot" by the light cruiser Savannah.

[dragoon500ly]

During the Tunisia landings, US infantry were supported by USN dive bombers, who were dropping depth charges on French tanks.

[dragoon500ly]

One of the Dirty little secrets of the Vietnam War was that the Viet Minh had, serving in its ranks, former Imperial Japanese troops and even Nazi German personnel.

Between 1,500 and 4,000 Japanese troops, including members of the Kempetai, served as technicians and trainers and served as the core of the first Viet Minh artillery units. some 100 or so Nazi officials and soldiers of the Auslander organization also fought with the Viet Minh.

And in the 1950s, the former Nazi commando otto Skorzeny served as a technical advisor to the South Vietnamese Army.

"Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War"

[dragoon500ly]

Field Expedients

During the Vietnam War, soldiers serving in the central highlands found the weather pretty chilly (40-50 degrees Farenheit). Troops sometimes found themselves in the field or remote outpsots without their normal sleeping gear. The more hardened types would improvise a sleeping bag out of the "Pouch, Human Remains", better known as a body bag. Those who used the body bag reported to it was reasonably cozy.

"Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War"

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Field Expedients

During the Vietnam War, soldiers serving in the central highlands found the weather pretty chilly (40-50 degrees Farenheit). Troops sometimes found themselves in the field or remote outpsots without their normal sleeping gear. The more hardened types would improvise a sleeping bag out of the "Pouch, Human Remains", better known as a body bag. Those who used the body bag reported to it was reasonably cozy.

"Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War"

Just don't get zipped up in one by a buddy. Recall the scene from Boys in Company C when they first arrived in Nam.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And in the 1950s, the former Nazi commando otto Skorzeny served as a technical advisor to the South Vietnamese Army.

"Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War"

That Skorzeny sure got around. I first heard about him in a Harry Turtledove fiction and thought he was a made up character. Then I saw his name in another book by another author and did some research on him. Amazing man.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by weswood

That Skorzeny sure got around. I first heard about him in a Harry Turtledove fiction and thought he was a made up character. Then I saw his name in another book by another author and did some research on him. Amazing man.

I've read the same Harry Turtledove novels. Until I read Dragoon's post I didn't realise that Skorzeny was a real person. Time for some Google-Fu.

[dragoon500ly]

If you really want to tick off a squid....just remind them that they lost an aircraft carrier during the Vietnam War.

The USS Card was an old escort carrier that was used to haul helicopters and light aircraft to Vietnam. She was sunk in the Saigon River by a VC underwater demolition team. The navy refused to admit that the ship was actually sunk, declaring that it was merely damaged, and spending a considerable amount of money and tens of thousands of man-hours to refloat and "repair" her.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Targan

Is that last aircraft a typo? I'm guessing it should read B-52?

I think you missed the word "never." I did the same thing.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

Once the U.S.S.R. proved it could shoot down high flying fast aircraft, the B-58 was obsolete.

Also why the XB-70 never took off. I thought that thing was awesome when I was a kid.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

Also why the XB-70 never took off. I thought that thing was awesome when I was a kid.

Yes, but the XB-70 netted us the F15, the preeminent fighter aircraft in the world today.

[dragoon500ly]

The all time record for most enemy submarines sunk in the shortest period time belongs to...

The USS England (DE-635), which sank six Japanese submarines in twelve days in May-June 1944.