US National Guard books (1985-1989) recommendations?

[dude_uk]

Hey guys.

Just writing to as if anyone has any good book reccomendations regarding the US National Guard of the late 80's (Our relevant time period).

I'm interested in two kinds of books. The first, any sort of overall 'idiots-guide'. Notes on organisation, training and day-to-day running. That sort of thing.

The second, more detail on NG Armoured units. I'd like to know more about how a part time tank unit operates. Not so much on the equipment. (Which would be mid-90s stuff anyway) But as above, training etc.

Thanks!

[James Langham]

Something I found useful when I was working on National Guard write ups was Harold Coyle's "They Are Soldiers(? - not got it to hand). NG unit deploys to Israeli/Palestinian border to try and keep the peace. Wrong era (2000s) but good for the mentality.

Bear in mind by 2000 however all units will be basically heavily made up of draftees (although the initial make up may affect how they operate to a degree).

[cavtroop]

I was in a NG Armored Cavalry unit from 93-96ish (when they reflagged to arty, I told them to F off ).

I was a track commander on an M901 ITV. The tankers had M60A3's and us scouts had M113's and M901's. We also had a mortar platoon along with the HQ guys. It's a little later than the timeframe you want, but the equipment and training were the same, shoot some questions and I'll see what I can remember

[dragoon500ly]

I was stationed at Fort Knox as a Gunnery Instructor during this time and had the chance to observe several NG companies rotating through the gunnery program.

On the technical side, the NG crews had a quite decent level of skill, they suffer less from crew rotation than the RA, on average the NG kept crews together for 5-6 years compared to 2-3. Crew drills were at least as good and some cases superior to the RA.

In the field, the RA had a greater advantage due to being able to get "down and dirty" far more often than the NG. Depending on the unit, many companies were restricted (budgets and lack of maneuver areas) to sand-table exercises or even reduced to walking the crews through a nearby park or field. Platoon level maneuvers were adequate, company and higher was at a noticeably lower level than the RA

The general view during this time was that the NG would need at least 45-60 days of intenstive training to bring them up to RA standards.

With the NG it really depended on the state, SC/NC/TX/MS/LA units tended to be at a much higher capability than the NY/NJ/PA units for example. But then these guard units had round-out and NATO missions and were able to get more funding and time for training and equipment.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I was stationed at Fort Knox as a Gunnery Instructor during this time and had the chance to observe several NG companies rotating through the gunnery program.

On the technical side, the NG crews had a quite decent level of skill, they suffer less from crew rotation than the RA, on average the NG kept crews together for 5-6 years compared to 2-3. Crew drills were at least as good and some cases superior to the RA.

In the field, the RA had a greater advantage due to being able to get "down and dirty" far more often than the NG. Depending on the unit, many companies were restricted (budgets and lack of maneuver areas) to sand-table exercises or even reduced to walking the crews through a nearby park or field. Platoon level maneuvers were adequate, company and higher was at a noticeably lower level than the RA

The general view during this time was that the NG would need at least 45-60 days of intenstive training to bring them up to RA standards.

With the NG it really depended on the state, SC/NC/TX/MS/LA units tended to be at a much higher capability than the NY/NJ/PA units for example. But then these guard units had round-out and NATO missions and were able to get more funding and time for training and equipment.

I'd agree with everything here, it mirrors my view from the inside as well. We as a unit did as well as we could with the extremely limited budgets and time restraints we had. During a typical drill weekend, we wouldn't get to the Cape training area until noon time or so. Then, a couple of hours to draw vehicles etc, we'd finally hit the maneuver area around 3pm in the afternoon. We'd do our thing until late in the evening, usually have some night maneuver of some kind (mounted or dismounted). In the am, it was two hours at the birdbath, another hour or so doing vehicle maintenance/turning in the vehicles, then the long bus ride back to the armory.

During the two week stint in the summer we got about 8 days 'in the box' or so. For the tankers, a large part of that was spent on the gunnery range. Us scouts spent alot of time running STX type lanes, though it was all self-run and evaluated, we got no support from anyone. Also, in the entire 5+ years I spent in the NG, not once did we do weapons qualifications. We did some familiarization fire with the MGs, and even once did a TOW live fire (mine malfunctioned, I was SO PISSED), but no weapons qual at all.

So in short, we knew our stuff, we were just incredibly rusty. Towards the end of my time with the Cav unit, we had zero budget for anything (literally). We'd spend the drill weekends in the armory running sand tables, but mostly fixing up the armory and other bullsh*t like that. MA then decided they didn't have the money to upgrade us to M1's and Bradleys, so they disbanded us. Most of the tankers went up to the VTARNG (they had M1s). Most of the scouts retrained to 13 series MOS (arty) that our unit reflagged as. I wanted nothing to do with that (and was getting fat and out of shape, but that's another thread ) so I just got out.

TL;DR - NG guys are highly motivated and fairly skilled. The skills just don't get used much, so are typically very rusty and will take some time (45-60 days is probably a good guess, as dragon said) to get 'up to speed'.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

With the NG it really depended on the state, SC/NC/TX/MS/LA units tended to be at a much higher capability than the NY/NJ/PA units for example. But then these guard units had round-out and NATO missions and were able to get more funding and time for training and equipment.

This was the time of the NG brigades in RA REFORGER units too I believe. They learned the lesson in ODS when the 'best' brigades were not ready, nor in some cases with individuals willing to get ready for deployment in the allotted time. Recalling the 'mutiny' of the Mississippi or was it Lousyana tank unit that resulted in the court martial of at least one of the mutineers.

I was in ND NG in the late 70s. As the only MP company in the state, and full of Nam vets, most of them combat vets to boot. Went on the ARTEP for summer training. They stopped out training after three days of scheduled five days as we had exceeded all tasks by that time and the state did not want us to be upgraded in readiness.??? Yep it depends on the state, or at least use to.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

This was the time of the NG brigades in RA REFORGER units too I believe. They learned the lesson in ODS when the 'best' brigades were not ready, nor in some cases with individuals willing to get ready for deployment in the allotted time. Recalling the 'mutiny' of the Mississippi or was it Lousyana tank unit that resulted in the court martial of at least one of the mutineers.

I think you're talking about the 256th in Louisiana: http://articles.latimes.com/1991-02-...national-guard

I was active duty at the time, and this made BIG news in military circles.