TOW's: Antiship Capable?

[kalos72]

So I was reading the Gateway module and realized that the defence of the ship was all with HMG's and a PIVAD and they made reference to the 40MM Oerikens they encountered in Nigeria.

Wouldn't a shoulder fired TOW or similar missile become a very good defensive option at that point?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So I was reading the Gateway module and realized that the defence of the ship was all with HMG's and a PIVAD and they made reference to the 40MM Oerikens they encountered in Nigeria.

Wouldn't a shoulder fired TOW or similar missile become a very good defensive option at that point?

TOWs can be fired from a tripod or vehicle mount, but not from shoulder. The TOW-I can't be fired over water as the guide-wires are uninsulated. It came as a nasty disappointment to the Israeli army attempting to engage enemy armor across bodies of water when the guidance lines would dip into the water and the missiles would immediately fail to guide.

TOW-II and variants later had insulated wires to avoid this problem.

As long as the target can set off the warhead, the missile can be used against it. TOWs were used against Uday and Qusay's last stronghold; the Israelis use pure-HE derivative warheads (versus shaped-charge anti-armor rounds) against buildings all the time. I'd say you could definitely use them against a boat or ship.

[kalos72]

Ahh true, I forgot about the guide wires.

I also assume even a Stinger would work as a really good anti ship weapon assuming the opposing ship had a heat source yeah?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

If the Stinger missile locked on to the heat source it could theoretically be used but anti-aircraft missiles typically have very small explosive charges.
They don't wreck enemy aircraft so much by explosive force as they do by hitting the plane with lots of fragments. Aircraft are normally made from thin aluminium and have a lot of fragile mechanical & electronic parts that a even a few fragments can ruin.

Ships on the other hand are typically made from steel or thick aluminium and have much of their fragile equipment located behind thick walls or in inner rooms. With a Stinger you might destroy the funnel of the ship but that's not going to do much of anything except maybe injure some of the crew.

[Targan]

Kalos, perhaps you were thinking of the M47 Dragon ATGM? That's man-portable, shoulder-launched (well sort of, it has a bipod) and wire-guided. IIRC Paul Mulcahy was a Dragon gunner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M47_Dragon

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Of course there's also the FGM-172 SRAW, which fits between the AT-4 (M136) and FGM148 Javelin ("Tankbreaker").

Unfortunately the SRAW has been taken out of the anti-armor role and is now just an "assault missile" equipped with a blast/fragmentation warhead. However for the OP's purposes, that might work better.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Ahh true, I forgot about the guide wires.

I also assume even a Stinger would work as a really good anti ship weapon assuming the opposing ship had a heat source yeah?

Mm, not really. Anti-boat weapon, yeah. All it would do is annoy a proper ship. The warhead, while it can be set to impact or proximity, is too small in either case to do much if any damage.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

TOWs can be fired from a tripod or vehicle mount, but not from shoulder. The TOW-I can't be fired over water as the guide-wires are uninsulated. It came as a nasty disappointment to the Israeli army attempting to engage enemy armor across bodies of water when the guidance lines would dip into the water and the missiles would immediately fail to guide.

TOW-II and variants later had insulated wires to avoid this problem.
... I'd say you could definitely use them against a boat or ship.

When my wargaming buddy and I back in the early '80s tried to mix Harpoon with Tacforce, we dreamed about what Marine Cobras with TOW could do to Soviet landing ships. Amazed I still remember that....

... and now I know it wouldn't have worked at all. Chopper probably wouldn't have gotten past the SAMs or AA anyway.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

When my wargaming buddy and I back in the early '80s tried to mix Harpoon with Tacforce, we dreamed about what Marine Cobras with TOW could do to Soviet landing ships. Amazed I still remember that....

... and now I know it wouldn't have worked at all. Chopper probably wouldn't have gotten past the SAMs or AA anyway.

Maverick or Hellfires would've been the better choice. However, as you correctly point out, air defense would've been murder.

The (chronological) sequel to Flight of the Intruder has a chapter where Jake Grafton is tasked with planning a strike package to hit a Soviet surface action group (that is, writing the paper, not actually getting ready to do it). I don't have the book handy but I think the loss rate was expected to be something like 30% of the alpha strike going down on the way in, with another 15%-30% being shot down on egress. The book is set in 1973, after Grafton's return from Vietnam but well prior to the completion of the development of the Harpoon, so the best weapons at the A6's disposal are Walleye TV-guided bombs and early PAVE-way laser-guided bombs. Regardless, the projected losses are grim. Plus they'd have to rearm and re-fuel surviving aircraft and go after any ships that weren't destroyed or sunk completely.

[Panther Al]

In theory, the TOW2 and higher can be used over water - after all there is some insulation on the wire unlike the TOW1.

However, the two times I seen a tow get shot out over more than a your typical smallish river overseas, the wires always got shorted anyways.

So I would say there would be a chance of it shorting out regardless. I do know when they gave me an in unit training on the Brad back when I was in the ACR they said *not* to fire over bodies of water for this reason.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

In theory, the TOW2 and higher can be used over water - after all there is some insulation on the wire unlike the TOW1.

However, the two times I seen a tow get shot out over more than a your typical smallish river overseas, the wires always got shorted anyways.

So I would say there would be a chance of it shorting out regardless. I do know when they gave me an in unit training on the Brad back when I was in the ACR they said *not* to fire over bodies of water for this reason.

I have a vague recollection of reading or seeing somewhere concern about cracks in TOW missile wire insulation, so that seems right.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

As long as the target can set off the warhead, the missile can be used against it.

There is a wire shag calculation that gunners can do, this would give the gunners an idea of how far they need aim off to keep the wire out of the water. When I went through my TOW Gunner Course, I only remember this being taught to us for range usage. We were getting the new TOW II Missiles and were using the TOW I for training only as they wanted used up.

Given that the ATGM like the TOW are crewed served weapons (IE more than one person is need to use the weapons technically) you be better off using systems like M47 Dragon , LAW, AT-4, RPG's in this case.

Also you have find some way to bolt the system to the deck as it move's a far bit when fired. There are claws on the tripod, but they would good for soft ground. Sand bags could another option, you also have to make sure the ATGM system had clear black blast area are ATGM can put up a lot of smoke, during the launch stage.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

There is a wire shag calculation that gunners can do, this would give the gunners an idea of how far they need aim off to keep the wire out of the water. When I went through my TOW Gunner Course, I only remember this being taught to us for range usage. We were getting the new TOW II Missiles and were using the TOW I for training only as they wanted used up.

Given that the ATGM like the TOW are crewed served weapons (IE more than one person is need to use the weapons technically) you be better off using systems like M47 Dragon , LAW, AT-4, RPG's in this case.

Also you have find some way to bolt the system to the deck as it move's a far bit when fired. There are claws on the tripod, but they would good for soft ground. Sand bags could another option, you also have to make sure the ATGM system had clear black blast area are ATGM can put up a lot of smoke, during the launch stage.

Ratchet straps, in 03' that is how we secured our M240, M2, and Mk 19 to our dump trucks.