The Back up Prime

[ArmySGT.]

So we have discussed this a time or two in conjunction with Prime Base itself or how the Project would have functioned if the Plan had worked.

So let's take it in and off itself. I personally know of nothing canon related except to allude that a functional backup exists with the personnel in cryosleep.

Okay everyone is asleep but, how many personnel does PB2 have?

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller?

Where geographically? PB1 is located in northen redacted to avoid a near miss by a soviet strike.

Is PB2 situated the same way? Is PB2 located on the opposite coast as PB1, or is it offshore in the U.S. Virgin islands, the Aleutians, or the Hawaiian chain?

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants?

More commo?

More production facilities?

More supplies?

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online? Essentially meaning it is at best half the scale of PB1.

Is it compromised? Is it knock offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions?

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction?

What kind of personnel were emplaced there?

Why hasn't Bruce himself awoken them?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Why hasn't Bruce himself awoken them?

This last part is answered in canon. He does not know where either one is.

[mmartin798]

As I was making a delightful grilled turkey, ham and cheese for my wife, I kept thinking about this and some other odd thoughts crept in. We have to assume that the Back-up Prime was in the event of a catastrophic failure at Prime. Based on that assumption, it is likely that Project Planners with intimate knowledge of the restoration plan would be there. Then there is that problem with the Counsel of Tomorrow and their families. People that sacrificed so much for the Project, we cannot assume they would be left out to die.

So based on those assumptions, Back-up Prime might be the base where the Counsel was to sleep out the war with the planners with two objectives. Wake up when restoration is well underway to the cheering of a grateful nation or to try and patch together some kind of restoration given the first plan failed for some reason by working with what is left.

This still has a few gaping holes. If this were the case, then Prime can wake up Back-up Prime anytime with the appropriate code. But how does it wake up in the event of a failure? Was it suppose to just automatically wake them up 20 years later assuming a problem was severe enough to not allow Prime to wake them? If so, what happen to that clock? Was it a second disaster or sabotage?

But to Sgt's questions, I see the Back-up Prime as smaller and designed to coordinate pieces rather than be a supply and support base. Prime Base was meant to monitor and record events and then to gather intel and activate bases. The Back-up had no one awake to monitor, so they are relying on either the data sent to them by Prime or whatever they can gather for themselves. If we assume that it is the Counsel and their families, there would likely be a large(ish) MARS contingent for protection or insurgency to try and free up otherwise isolated or harassed teams.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I think in order to answer that question you would need to define what other function PB2 would fill with PB1 operational. For example, the XO of a ship takes over if the CO is incapacitated, but if the CO is fine then the XO still has a host of responsibilities. So what does PB2 do?

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

If you/we/canon doesn't have a solid answer, then I would suggest that PB2 is probably just a slightly beefed-up regional command base. Take a normal RCB and give it a bit better comms and planning staff, but not much - you would have to assume that resources could be better spent elsewhere.

I would think that PB2 would still remain separate from a Regional base. Though I do a agree it should have something to do. Probably the coordination of satellite comms and such, possibly even the ability to launch Morrowsat 2. I don’t think either PB1 or PB2 should have been designed or utilized as someplace with a lot of people coming and going. Probably does have a great number of planning staffers who with a functional PB1 would concentrate on overseas, Caribbean, or South American coordination and recovery efforts. Things like ethanol production, gas or oil drill rigs, food production in Argentina and Brazil while North America is still plagued by fallout.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I would assume opposite coast but mainland. You have regional command bases already, if you need an HQ off CONUS you probably don't have a Project to command any more.

I was think in the Appalachia….. a former mine such as coal or bauxite… With the same cover story…. Played out with millions in fines and a huge environmental cleanup effort that disguises all the material and building.

Don’t agree that an OCONUS command means a failed effort. Continental Commands coordinate all the big stuff for operations on the other side of the planet. CentCom is in Florida, South Com is in florida, and PacCom is on Oahu. Those are managing Corps and Division assets or Fleet assets on the other side of the world by sat com and phone traffic through undersea cable. Morrowsat and would expect a post – war launch of companion satellites on solid rocket boosters that can sit around for ages to be carried out.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Almost certainly not.

Actually I would…… Regional bases and Supply bases don’t need non combatants under foot and a base that isn’t open to the general public is probably better. Less chance of biowarfare agents slipping in.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Than what? PB1? Absolutely not. But probably more than anyone else. Communications is probably the most vital requirement of command.

Actually if it is in the Eastern United States I would expect it to have more commo. Plugged into hardwire phone lines, cell tower networks, and data bearing fiber optics. Just by virtue of location and the density of such networks. I wouldn’t expect it to have fixed wing assets and only modest rotary craft support. This might even be the location of Morrow Rail assets. The density of rail networks and smaller networks of independent rail belonging to corporations makes this possible even in Appalachia.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

While PB1 probably would have seen some advantage in having so much collocated, spreading the rest out seems to make more sense. That is, the total risk to the Project is probably minimized by having PB2 be just a planning and coordination center, with as little else as possible.

I would think that the majority of functioning production facilities exist in Regional Bases, like you said to spread them about. However, I would also expect each Prime to be able to produce parts for a Region that may be overburdened or to make one offs and specialty equipment for unforeseen needs.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I suppose it could be an outdated facility, but if so it would be likely stripped down and largely empty.

Why? Morrow doesn’t appear to be the sort to do that. Legacy caches for example.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Yes, it is compromised. One way or the other, the story of TMP requires that all national command elements are out of the way. If PB2 existed, it was either destroyed or kept from waking.

I agree, it is compromised or the story doesn’t work. Plausible reasons and the manner of this is important to the story. If PB2 is asleep with the wake call or found, gutted and burnt each make for a different dramatic story.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

BTW, it is always worthwhile to remember that the creators (and continuers) of this game took a lot of liberties with "good sense planning" to create the gaming environment they desired. There are times when "this doesn't make sense" is the correct thing to say, and your choices are either to go off-canon or ignore the problem.

I hate the Pheonix team concept and don’t use them. I go with a Senior Command staff in cryosleep with additional direct Recon personnel attached.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I cannot see why it would.

Common, give it a whirl. Huge star wars lasers to kill satellites was an 80’s thing. Robots? Artificial intelligence? Cloning?

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Assuming that it is a beefed-up regional command base, I would say it would have the best crew available for those bases, with a carefully set of skills that would allow them to rebuild PB1's most important functions on the skeletal framework of PB2. I would add a 3-9 man Phoenix contingent as well - it always bugged me that Phoenix would be in one location, those guys would have known how ridiculous a risk that was, having at least one other Phoenix group here makes sense to me.

Me? I say a complete Senior Command staff in cryosleep with a dedicated attached Recon element. Probably a MARS element that can be moved quickly to a hot spot to assist. HAAM suits with a parachute,

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I would think that PB2 would still remain separate from a Regional base. Though I do a agree it should have something to do. Probably the coordination of satellite comms and such, possibly even the ability to launch Morrowsat 2. I don’t think either PB1 or PB2 should have been designed or utilized as someplace with a lot of people coming and going. Probably does have a great number of planning staffers who with a functional PB1 would concentrate on overseas, Caribbean, or South American coordination and recovery efforts. Things like ethanol production, gas or oil drill rigs, food production in Argentina and Brazil while North America is still plagued by fallout.

The trick is that you need to find some important-while-PB1-exists task that requires the same quantity and kind of people as PB2. Satellite comms seems like a handful of people too small and specialized for PB2, likewise fuel or food production. These are general command staff, they need something general to command.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Don’t agree that an OCONUS command means a failed effort. Continental Commands coordinate all the big stuff for operations on the other side of the planet. CentCom is in Florida, South Com is in florida, and PacCom is on Oahu. Those are managing Corps and Division assets or Fleet assets on the other side of the world by sat com and phone traffic through undersea cable. Morrowsat and would expect a post – war launch of companion satellites on solid rocket boosters that can sit around for ages to be carried out.

That makes a lot of assumptions that are fine for a contemporary world power but highly risky for a post-apocalyptic recovery effort. You can't count on sat comms or undersea cables, heck you might not even have more than a modicum of water or air transport. Putting PB2 off the mainland means depending on a lot of other things going right just to maintain a connection.

And again, if you are expecting so much of the mainland to be hit that you cannot risk putting PB2 there, how much of the Project can you expect to be left?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Actually I would…… Regional bases and Supply bases don’t need non combatants under foot and a base that isn’t open to the general public is probably better. Less chance of biowarfare agents slipping in.

I agree that noncombatants aren't needed, there really isn't a great reason to have them there in PB1, so I am not sure why you are saying "actually I would". It is the same problem Star Trek: TNG had, adding noncombatants adds drama but doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Actually if it is in the Eastern United States I would expect it to have more commo. Plugged into hardwire phone lines, cell tower networks, and data bearing fiber optics. Just by virtue of location and the density of such networks. I wouldn’t expect it to have fixed wing assets and only modest rotary craft support. This might even be the location of Morrow Rail assets. The density of rail networks and smaller networks of independent rail belonging to corporations makes this possible even in Appalachia.

Hard connections are a terrible idea, easy to track, hard to hide - I'm an electrical engineer, and the more connections you have to grid the more screens you are going to pop up on.

As to rail, you cannot expect something like rail lines to go more than a few miles without a break. As far as the TMP is concerned, the rail lines should be a disaster to be reclaimed later.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I would think that the majority of functioning production facilities exist in Regional Bases, like you said to spread them about. However, I would also expect each Prime to be able to produce parts for a Region that may be overburdened or to make one offs and specialty equipment for unforeseen needs.

Why? There is nothing about command and control that requires production facilities. A national manufacturing facility could and should be a separate facility to minimize exposure and risk. The only reason for including anything with PB is to better communicate end-user requirements to research needs, and a good comms pipeline handles that pretty well.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Why? Morrow doesn’t appear to be the sort to do that. Legacy caches for example.

Because the requirements of a backup are different than the requirements of the principal. A prototype or outdated PB facility would have a lot that is not desirable in a backup unless you actually need all those resources in one place with PB1 still up and running. If this is the idea behind PB1 then I would expect them to mothball large parts of the facility and install a skeleton crew with some important but secondary command or control (only!) function for while PB1 is operational. Remember that PB2 need high quality staff, you want a job for them to do that is worthy of their skills, but you don't want a duplicate command facility needlessly eating up your resources.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Common, give it a whirl. Huge star wars lasers to kill satellites was an 80’s thing. Robots? Artificial intelligence? Cloning?

Sure, but why at PB2? What advantage is gained by having them with PB2 where one nuke could take out both?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Me? I say a complete Senior Command staff in cryosleep with a dedicated attached Recon element. Probably a MARS element that can be moved quickly to a hot spot to assist. HAAM suits with a parachute,

And what is their job with PB1 functioning? Again, these are high-value staff, you can't afford to have them napping, no matter what you want them working. There really isn't a need for 2 PB's at the same time.

[nuke11]

First I think you would want to come up with a different name for the base.

Antonyms for prime

base
bottom
nadir
worst
conclusion
downfall
end

Most of these are really no good for a secondary command base name, but I kind of like "Nadir Base"

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And what is their job with PB1 functioning? Again, these are high-value staff, you can't afford to have them napping, no matter what you want them working. There really isn't a need for 2 PB's at the same time.

I would think it would be two fold.

1) To take over in case of the loss of Prime Base 1 due to nuclear strike or other action. Which admittedly Prime Base 2 has failed to do. So I can surmise that there is no one outside of cryosleep in PB2 to make a determination. PB2 has to be awoke by a signal from PB1 to awaken. There is probably a "Deadman" switch that is supposed to awaken PB2 if PB1 is knocked out. I feel PB1 disabled this due to the events that happened upon opening and intended PB2 to be awoken by the same wakeup signal intended for the rest of the project.


2) PB2 would have assumed responsibility for a large portion of the eastern seaboard as the Project became to large to be managed. PB2 would become the higher authority for all regions east of the Mississippi river after a certain threshold had been reached.

3)I have considered PB2 to be the dedicated location for the jumpstart of the University and College effort. A few hundred persons all with graduate degrees and teaching experience that are intended to be re-introduced in areas that are recovering well to get the advanced education system necessary for industry, medicine, government, etc. These people are vital to the recovery but, not in the initial disaster response period.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Okay everyone is asleep but, how many personnel does PB2 have?

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller?

I think in order to answer that question you would need to define what other function PB2 would fill with PB1 operational. For example, the XO of a ship takes over if the CO is incapacitated, but if the CO is fine then the XO still has a host of responsibilities. So what does PB2 do?

If you/we/canon doesn't have a solid answer, then I would suggest that PB2 is probably just a slightly beefed-up regional command base. Take a normal RCB and give it a bit better comms and planning staff, but not much - you would have to assume that resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Where geographically? PB1 is located in northen redacted to avoid a near miss by a soviet strike.

Is PB2 situated the same way? Is PB2 located on the opposite coast as PB1, or is it offshore in the U.S. Virgin islands, the Aleutians, or the Hawaiian chain?

I would assume opposite coast but mainland. You have regional command bases already, if you need an HQ off CONUS you probably don't have a Project to command any more.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants?

Almost certainly not.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

More commo?

Than what? PB1? Absolutely not. But probably more than anyone else. Communications is probably the most vital requirement of command.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

More production facilities?

More supplies?

While PB1 probably would have seen some advantage in having so much collocated, spreading the rest out seems to make more sense. That is, the total risk to the Project is probably minimized by having PB2 be just a planning and coordination center, with as little else as possible.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online? Essentially meaning it is at best half the scale of PB1.

I suppose it could be an outdated facility, but if so it would be likely stripped down and largely empty.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Is it compromised? Is it knock offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions?

Yes, it is compromised. One way or the other, the story of TMP requires that all national command elements are out of the way. If PB2 existed, it was either destroyed or kept from waking.

BTW, it is always worthwhile to remember that the creators (and continuers) of this game took a lot of liberties with "good sense planning" to create the gaming environment they desired. There are times when "this doesn't make sense" is the correct thing to say, and your choices are either to go off-canon or ignore the problem.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction?

I cannot see why it would.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

What kind of personnel were emplaced there?

Assuming that it is a beefed-up regional command base, I would say it would have the best crew available for those bases, with a carefully set of skills that would allow them to rebuild PB1's most important functions on the skeletal framework of PB2. I would add a 3-9 man Phoenix contingent as well - it always bugged me that Phoenix would be in one location, those guys would have known how ridiculous a risk that was, having at least one other Phoenix group here makes sense to me.