Timelines

[tsofian]

Historically one of the biggest set of questions revolved around what Morrow knew and when he knew it. It is stated he is a time traveller. In that case he would have had concrete knowledge of the future, correct?

I always thought that although Morrow could travel through time he was never exactly certain which timeline he was moving through. There could be a near infinite number of timelines. Each is different from the others. In some there is no Edwin Morrow and hence no Morrow Project, in others the Project works out as planned. In some there is no war. Morrow is basically playing the odds as he averages the outcomes from all the Timelines he has investigated. This is why he didn't stop the war in the particular Timeline the characters find themselves in. This why he wasn't able to foresee the destruction of Prime Base.

In many ways the characters in most games find themselves in a timeline that is basically "the worst of many possible worlds".

[dragoon500ly]

This is one that I feel really unsure about, just feel that if Bruce Morrow was a time traveller, then we start running into way too many bad episodes of bad Star Trek episodes! LOL!!! I think a more balanced BM is the talented engineer and visionary leader.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I think a more balanced BM is the talented engineer and visionary leader.

TMP without time travel requires that this group create an incredible level of technology, amass a huge amount of wealth, recruit thousands of people for potential death sentences, and break numerous laws, all of which they keep secret for a single purpose with no real evidence it would be needed.

I don't see how that is more balanced. TMP makes no sense to me without some proof that the war was going to happen.

[tsofian]

If there isn't proof it is all about faith and it becomes a cult, and in a cult of personality built around Bruce Edwin Morrow.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

If there isn't proof it is all about faith and it becomes a cult, and in a cult of personality built around Bruce Edwin Morrow.

And those are not the kinds of people able to actually perform the mission of the Project.

This does remind me of an old RPG called Bureau 13, about a quasi-MIB group that dealt with supernatural/alien/whatever problems in the US. One of the "minor nuisances", clearly based on TMP, was a group of well-armed but delusional people who had frozen themselves underground to save the world after nuclear war. Waking them was not advised, as they tended to be cranky that the war had not yet happened.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And those are not the kinds of people able to actually perform the mission of the Project.

This does remind me of an old RPG called Bureau 13, about a quasi-MIB group that dealt with supernatural/alien/whatever problems in the US. One of the "minor nuisances", clearly based on TMP, was a group of well-armed but delusional people who had frozen themselves underground to save the world after nuclear war. Waking them was not advised, as they tended to be cranky that the war had not yet happened.

Also written by Richard Tucholka, still in print, and still for sale.

When I did a podcast with Richard he is making headway on the Steampunk 1880s setting version. TriTac Games is Richard's company.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by tsofian

If there isn't proof it is all about faith and it becomes a cult, and in a cult of personality built around Bruce Edwin Morrow.

Actually it's stated that he provided evidence to the men who became the Council of Tomorrow in 1962, then provided samples to build the fusion plants and lasers in 1964.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Actually it's stated that he provided evidence to the men who became the Council of Tomorrow in 1962, then provided samples to build the fusion plants and lasers in 1964.

Exactly!

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Historically one of the biggest set of questions revolved around what Morrow knew and when he knew it. It is stated he is a time traveller. In that case he would have had concrete knowledge of the future, correct?

Why? He is hopping into a future where documentation, particularly of details, is going to be an extremely low priority. If he hopped into a post-apocalyptic wasteland, is he going to be able to take the time to find someone who can give a coherent account of what happened?

Originally Posted by tsofian

I always thought that although Morrow could travel through time he was never exactly certain which timeline he was moving through. There could be a near infinite number of timelines.

I dislike this one because without the ongoing ability to travel in time everything becomes an exercise in futility. Especially if there are infinite timelines, because then success just means you got lucky while failure means knowing that there is another timeline where you succeeded. If the characters are fighting for one post-apocalyptic wasteland out of many then there doesn't seem to be as much significance behind what they do.

The way I reinterpreted it, years ago, was that BEM could travel in time by virtue of some innate power, but lacking instruction on how to use it or any real references he had poor control over when he landed - even when he attempted to repeat jumps he tended to miss by some significant amount. His initial jumps were all short, and when he tried his first BIG jump forward... he wound up in a nuclear wasteland. Over the course of his wanderings, trying to remain hidden, he came across a devastated TMP team, and realized that their existence and name gave him a mission. Taking some ultra-tech from the wreckage he took a BIG jump back... and would up in the 60's (or whenever).

Using his knowledge of and from the future and reinforcing it with the artifacts he had taken, he contacted a group of people who would become the Council of Tomorrow. Their first idea, once they accepted the truth, was to try and prevent the war, but in their attempts they realized that there was only one timeline and that the Observer Effect prevented Morrow from actually changing anything - the war was a fixed point in time, so to say, but they had a lot of latitude in changing things in relatively small ways that they could use to create the Project.

About this time it was also realized that his gift was killing him - every jump was a huge strain on his brain, and at the point of discovery he likely only had a few more before he and his gift were lost forever. At his insistence, the CoT and fledgling TMP made some arrangements to make the most of the few trips he had left, trips that helped to set up the Project with funding and avoid any real exposure. The Project never had an exact date of the war, his pre-war jumps were trivial to date but his only post-war jump failed to date the war at all, and it was feared that jumping too close to the war could land him in it and kill him. Nonetheless, his last jump was an attempt to jump even farther into the future, far enough past the war to be safe from its effects and to hopefully find a civilization that could answer his questions, but he never returned and the Project continued without him.

Anyway, consider that an alternative.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I dislike this one because without the ongoing ability to travel in time everything becomes an exercise in futility. Especially if there are infinite timelines, because then success just means you got lucky while failure means knowing that there is another timeline where you succeeded. If the characters are fighting for one post-apocalyptic wasteland out of many then there doesn't seem to be as much significance behind what they do

The characters won't care. You live your life. Just because another you in a different quantum reality is not bleeding to death in a foxhole will probably not make you smile as life slips away.

[nuke11]

Really the only timeline that intercepts 1st thru 3rd and 4th edition is 1989.

The project has to rush thru the 1987 updates to make the 1989 deadline in both new and old editions that BEM saw.

In 3rd that is the hard date so PB and everything that is required for TMP must be in place and doing it's intended purpose by November.

For the 4th edition we have the 2017 date.

So whatever is done for the PB update you have 1 date in time that needs to be set in stone and everything evolves around that date, November 1989.

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Historically one of the biggest set of questions revolved around what Morrow knew and when he knew it. It is stated he is a time traveller. In that case he would have had concrete knowledge of the future, correct?

I always thought that although Morrow could travel through time he was never exactly certain which timeline he was moving through. There could be a near infinite number of timelines. Each is different from the others. In some there is no Edwin Morrow and hence no Morrow Project, in others the Project works out as planned. In some there is no war. Morrow is basically playing the odds as he averages the outcomes from all the Timelines he has investigated. This is why he didn't stop the war in the particular Timeline the characters find themselves in. This why he wasn't able to foresee the destruction of Prime Base.

In many ways the characters in most games find themselves in a timeline that is basically "the worst of many possible worlds".

If you want a very good idea on how this could work see the Anime "Steins;Gate". It deals with creating and then trying to collapse multiple time lines in order to avoid catastrophe. A lot of fun!

[tsofian]

Thanks!

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Thanks!

Please enjoy. My 17 year old son is heavily into Anime (off to a convention all weekend with his buddies) and all of the ones I have watched so far are amazing. Take a great novel and animate it over a period of a year's worth of episodes. Even the "teen girls in school uniforms" ones he has shown me have had a massive level of ideas not just teen pulp.

[gamerguy]

OK I just re-read my pre-publication copy and have these thoughts. Please, if you haven't already, read my little bit of history "A Long Time Ago Somewhere in Michigan....".

As to multiple time lines, yes I think there are but often the net result of those timelines always ends with the same conclusion. Again I refer you to Stiens;Gate. There is an innate will in the universe to follow one path. Make a small push here or there and forces push back and cancel you efforts out.

Same thing with TMP. BEM bounces around a few time lines. Tries to make a difference and no matter what crap happens. So he gives up on trying to stop THE WAR and searches out how to save mankind after the fact. As intimated in my copy five years is too close to do more than patch a few holes. Things are still collapsing. All the teams will do is become part of the rot. Things have to settle at a level where TMP's efforts will (can) hope to make a difference.

IMHO BEM intended TMP to come into force 150 or so years down the road. There will still be pockets of disease, or radiation or advanced technology but the background level will run from early steam age to early electric age. For better and worse people will have settled into some form of civilization and any resources will be based on available and exploitable materials.

How will TMP 'help' these people? First you may or may not like who or what is 'leading' people but if the net effect is a growing stable community what right is it of yours to try changing the status quo? Is it your job to become the new dictator or cult or is it to help these people rebuild? This can be a very tough choice, especially for players new to RPGs. So do you ignore groups you don't agree with? Help their adversaries? Try to impose your will on them? Go to war to break their leaders' control? If you succeed, then what? Become the new dictator or cult? Force your players to think hard on these choices. At least one NPC should be opening this discussion if one of the PCs doesn't.

I have been in games where a little help goes a long way but always when trying to impose my will everything screws up. Get rid of the bad guy and there are usually ten worse ready to step up. Check out any country whose ruling group as been overthrown in the past century or so and see real world parallels.

As I said I believe BEM arranged for TMP to 'come out' about 150 years later. Easy enough to get a few of the critical systems designers or programmers to see it your way and put in a deep switch which over rides the agreed upon sequence with your own.

So what is your take?