The Phoenix Team, why and why not

[dragoon500ly]

And here is the thread about the most discussed addition to the Project...

The team consists of 47 men and they are all former Special Forces, combat veterans, unmarried with no close family ties, masters of some form of unarmed combat and fluent in at least one language other than English.

All I can say, in my games, NO!!

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And here is the thread about the most discussed addition to the Project...

The team consists of 47 men and they are all former Special Forces, combat veterans, unmarried with no close family ties, masters of some form of unarmed combat and fluent in at least one language other than English.

All I can say, in my games, NO!!

I am with Dragoon here. NO!!!

One nice thing is that the PB module does say that Phoenix is OPTIONAL....You can write it out of YOUR PB.

My $0.02

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

I've said this on the Prime Base thread, I'd rather see 5-6 recon teams and 2-3 mars teams rather the P-Team

[mikeo80]

IIRC in the PB module, the only folks we see at PB are the intel gatherers, the command team, and the families. I do not recall ANY other teams. I think this could be added to PB if you wanted to. But Prime is the central Command and Control for the entire Morrow Project.

This is why I was VERY confused with the camp at Pahute Pass. IF you are going to set up a test village, fine. 50+ klicks from PB. MINIMUM. And the people who go out on this mission are ONE WAY only. You want to minimize backtrack to PB as best as you can. Nothing is perfect, Murphy was a grunt, and no plan survives the first brush with combat. Having said ALL of that, do the best you can. You are PB, for goodness sakes. The entire project rests with you.

I am now off of soap box. Sorry.

My $0.02

Mike

[ArmySGT.]

I would rather go with Prime Base going down to internal sabotage by a sleeper cell than the who Krell/Pahute place debacle.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I would rather go with Prime Base going down to internal sabotage by a sleeper cell than the who Krell/Pahute place debacle.

This would bypass any filtration and sensors in the air circulation.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I've said this on the Prime Base thread, I'd rather see 5-6 recon teams and 2-3 mars teams rather the P-Team

I am with you on this. The only reason I would have for calling them out as special and have a designation like Phoenix Team would be to have them be the logical result of Morrow Internal Security. In all my personal deliberations on the structure of Morrow Industries and Morrow Project, there is a need for some internal security to keep those workers not part of the Project from getting too close, to quash rumors in the media and the like. Then once the Project starts, they are sort of like MPs, keeping any given team from going too far off the rails on a power trip. As such, they would be well trained, more loyal average personnel.

They would not be the gray jumpsuit wearing men with camo capes flying away to trouble spots they picked up with their super hearing where two of them can leave in the morning, totally destroy a rogue team, the company of irregulars they trained and the improvised weapons and be back at base to enjoy a lovely lunch. From the description we have of them in PB, they might as well operate that way.

[cosmicfish]

Here is my counter argument:

You (yes You!!) are responsible for recruiting people into Morrow. To minimize training costs, you have been given a list of skills and characteristics to look for, including but not limited to military experience. And because that list was not made by buffoons, certain types of military experience are preferable to others.

So you go recruiting, and you wind up with X military veterans. Good job You! Assuming you did a good job, X is going to skew at least a little towards the most preferable military professions, but even if it doesn't you certainly don't have a uniform set of skills and experiences - you some guys whose military experience consisted of doing laundry or opening #10 cans of slop, but you also have guys who just got out of years of combat duty in tough, tough units.

Now You get promoted to actually assigning those veterans to teams. You really are doing great! You could just assign them randomly, but if you are not a complete schmuck, or at least consult some of the guys you are assigning, you realize that just about any quasi-military unit has "line" units and "elite" units. Heck, even the police have SWAT teams! So you decide to create tiers in your MARS and Recon assets (heck, probably ALL team types, but not right now), which means that you have at least one team that is "top tier". Who goes on that team? Probably those guys with the REAL thousand yard stare and a decade of swamp fighting under their belts.

Wait, this is starting to sound a lot like... Phoenix Team! The details may vary a little, but I cannot see how any sane organization would NOT wind up with something very like Phoenix Team at PB for the same reason that they would have a whole lot of other experts there too. The characters' team would not expect to have the best doctor in the Project, or the best leader, or the best shooter, and they should reasonably expect that those "bests" are going to be at PB.

Now, there is a definite role-playing challenge with Phoenix Team, but that doesn't mean that the reasonable solution is to eliminate the very idea. Just have them killed with everyone else! The 3ed demise of PB certainly gave a few instances where activating the team would have been a reasonable choice, and no amount of special operations training or experience will render you immune to NBC weapons!

So don't make the planners of the Project idiots out of step with every concept of organizational structure and leadership, just use the enemy to kill off the parts you don't want!

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Here is my counter argument:

You (yes You!!) are responsible for recruiting people into Morrow. To minimize training costs, you have been given a list of skills and characteristics to look for, including but not limited to military experience. And because that list was not made by buffoons, certain types of military experience are preferable to others.

So you go recruiting, and you wind up with X military veterans. Good job You! Assuming you did a good job, X is going to skew at least a little towards the most preferable military professions, but even if it doesn't you certainly don't have a uniform set of skills and experiences - you some guys whose military experience consisted of doing laundry or opening #10 cans of slop, but you also have guys who just got out of years of combat duty in tough, tough units.

Now You get promoted to actually assigning those veterans to teams. You really are doing great! You could just assign them randomly, but if you are not a complete schmuck, or at least consult some of the guys you are assigning, you realize that just about any quasi-military unit has "line" units and "elite" units. Heck, even the police have SWAT teams! So you decide to create tiers in your MARS and Recon assets (heck, probably ALL team types, but not right now), which means that you have at least one team that is "top tier". Who goes on that team? Probably those guys with the REAL thousand yard stare and a decade of swamp fighting under their belts.

Wait, this is starting to sound a lot like... Phoenix Team! The details may vary a little, but I cannot see how any sane organization would NOT wind up with something very like Phoenix Team at PB for the same reason that they would have a whole lot of other experts there too. The characters' team would not expect to have the best doctor in the Project, or the best leader, or the best shooter, and they should reasonably expect that those "bests" are going to be at PB.

Now, there is a definite role-playing challenge with Phoenix Team, but that doesn't mean that the reasonable solution is to eliminate the very idea. Just have them killed with everyone else! The 3ed demise of PB certainly gave a few instances where activating the team would have been a reasonable choice, and no amount of special operations training or experience will render you immune to NBC weapons!

So don't make the planners of the Project idiots out of step with every concept of organizational structure and leadership, just use the enemy to kill off the parts you don't want!

That is certainly one way to look at it. There are others, so let me ramble on here.

Instead of taking all the best of anything and putting them all together you parcel them out so that instead of having a GREAT team and then ones that are increasingly lack luster you have a number of teams that have a really top person and some other folks that that leader can mentor and keep alive in the post oops world until they have enough experience to be more likely to survive.In all the military units I served with we always tried to spread the wealth of experience and skills across squads, platoons and such so that we didn't have all our eggs in one basket.

Secondly the Phoenix guys are all supposed to have no strong social connections. So were they psychologically unable to form strong social bonds or did they suffer the loss of everyone they cared about? Either of these options is bad (The former is REALLY bad-are they a sociopath?)

In almost any military organization the most important bond is to your team mates, squaddies first and then up to the Company level. 57 super soldiers is basically a Company. These guys KNOW they are better than EVERYONE else in the Project. They will shake out and get a leader at some point. This leader will be the single most powerful person in the whole Project. He will command the loyalty and respect of the single most powerful asset the Project has. If at some point he disagrees with the entire rest of the Morrow Project there isn't a damn thing anyone (or in fact everyone) can do about it.

If a regular Joe team goes rogue several other teams can band together and deal with the issue. If this band goes rogue they can't be stopped because they are basically a Special Ops dream team.

It would be illogical for the Project to build the exact type of asset that would be most likely to leave the reservation AND be too strong to deal with.

YMMV