Italy in T2K

[RN7]

According to GDW Italy left NATO in T2K, joined the Warsaw Pact and then went to war against NATO.

Going Home SB states that the Italian Folgore Mechanised Division is acting as anti-Soviet partisans in Austria, and that its commander had long opposed the socialist coalition which has ruled Italy in recent years, and has always despised the Warsaw Pact and regretted Italy's involvement with it.

Mediterranean Cruise SB states that after the US entered the war in 1996, Italy's government demanded that American troops return to their start lines, then withdrew from NATO when this was not forthcoming. Military bases in Italy were closed to the belligerents, but Italy tried to remain neutral in the greater conflict. In 1997 NATO aid to Turkey brought Italy into the war, in accordance to its treaty obligations (Warsaw Pact) on July 1st 1997.

So what happens if Italy also decides to nationalise stocks of US nuclear warheads in Italy?

That would be 112 USAF BGM-109G GLCM's, 200 USAF B61 nuclear bombs to be used by 50 Italian Air Force Tornado and F-104G/S fighter-bombers, 40 US Army W70 nuclear warheads for Italian Army Lance Missiles, 15 US Army W23 nuclear artillery shells for Italian Army 203mm howitzers, and 60 US Navy B57 nuclear depth charges for use by Italian Navy aircraft.

[mpipes]

In the campaign I had....

With the launch of strategic nuclear weapons against neutral countries, the Italians finally have had enough. Despite suffering several NATO nuclear strikes, Italian ire focuses on the Soviets, and the government’s decision to align with the New Warsaw Pact. Italians take to the streets in open rebellion against the government, seizing control as the military stands by at first and then joins the rebellion. The Socialist Italian Prime Minister and his deputy are captured by mobs and lynched, the Foreign Minister is burned to death in a Molotov cocktail attack on his villa outside Rome, and the Defense Minister is arrested near Milan and given a brief “trial” before being shot by a firing squad in Milan’s main square. Hundreds of other leftist politicians and their families are ruthlessly hunted down and killed. In one infamous incident, at least 1500 are locked in a heavily fallout contaminated prison near Foggia and left to die. Italian units cease combat operations and retreat back toward Italy under white flags. Within two weeks a new pro-NATO government takes full control and Italy repudiates its treaties with Greece and the Warsaw Pact, ordering its troops back to Italian territory and declaring a general cease fire with NATO before Christmas.

The Italian Army successfully re-organizes and rebuilds through March 1998. Secret negotiations take place with NATO partners in December 1997 and January 1998, as the Italians unsuccessfully attempt to bring France and Belgium back into the alliance. Italy makes assurances to German and Austrian leaders that the country plans to rejoin the war as a NATO member. Italian and NATO POWs held by these reconciled NATO partners are repatriated to their respective countries, with several thousand Italians and other NATO troops rejoining their respective national militaries.

Italian troops in conjunction with Austrian rear guard troops force the passes into eastern Austria and penetrate to the Czech border as the Italians re-enter the war on the NATO side, rolling up the Pact forces as they tear into the Pact’s flank. The combined NATO force enters Czech territory before running out of steam after capturing Budweis. However, NATO is spent at this point and is not in a logistical position to make any further follow up. Stories start to circulate of clashes between Czechoslovakian 24th Motor Rifle Division troops and Soviet troops relieving them of occupation duty in Austria, when the 24th's commander (backed by his commissar) refuses to hand over scarce vehicles and supplies. The 24th MRD is quickly and quietly recalled home given internal security duties at home, where it is noted they take great delight in hunting down Soviet deserters and marauders who try to cross the Carpathian Mountains.

In November the Soviet 30th Guards Motor Rifle Division is ordered to move to Ljubljana in Yugoslavia in preparation for attacking supply links to the Italian Folgore Mechanized Division and associated Austrian militia troops (which have been attempting to drive out the last of the Soviet forces and capture Graz, Austria). The 30th delays, making excuse after excuse before eventually declaring that they will no longer follow orders. It is only the latest in a string of incidents where Pact divisions have refused to obey orders.

As for the nuclear weapons...
The primary concern of the US military would be to get the nuclear weapons out. Without going into classified details....in the event of a possible compromise of a nuclear weapon, commanders are authorized to TAKE ANY AND ALL STEPS to prevent it. And I do mean authority to do ANYTHING. At the very least, sabotage.

[Rainbow Six]

Challenge #42 had an article on Italy in 2300 which included some information on what happened during the Twilight War. I don't have a copy to hand any more but here's a couple of quotes that were posted in an earlier discussion here about the location of the Pope.

"The Nuova Italia movement was based in Venice, the only city to escape nuclear attack. Nevertheless, Rome remained the focus for the "idea of Italy,~ and the return of central authority to a largely rebuilt Rome In 2100 represented the climax of over a century's work."

"Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since."

If anyone has the full article they may be able to add more detail.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Challenge #42 had an article on Italy in 2300 which included some information on what happened during the Twilight War. I don't have a copy to hand any more but here's a couple of quotes that were posted in an earlier discussion here about the location of the Pope.




If anyone has the full article they may be able to add more detail.

I don't know if the Soviets would have nuked Rome. Although it is the Italian capital its not as economically important as say Milan, and Naples would be a bigger military target. More importantly Rome is a major world cultural centre and is the spiritual home of the Roman Catholic Church. There are a lot of Catholics among the Soviet Union's allies in Latin America and Africa, and also within the Warsaw Pact in Europe; Poland and quite a few in Czechoslovakia, Hungary and even East Germany.

[stilleto69]

Hi Guys,
Just wanted to chime in. Over at Chico's web site (https://sites.google.com/site/chico20854/) under Air Force OBATS he wrote an interesting article regarding one such possibility for the 487th Tactical Missile Wing (USAF GLCMs). It's a very good read if I say so myself.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by stilleto69

Hi Guys,
Just wanted to chime in. Over at Chico's web site (https://sites.google.com/site/chico20854/) under Air Force OBATS he wrote an interesting article regarding one such possibility for the 487th Tactical Missile Wing (USAF GLCMs). It's a very good read if I say so myself.

After the Italians declare they are leaving NATO I'd say Sicily would be the logical choice for US forces in Italy to regroup before they fully withdraw from Italy, as Sicily is an island and home to Cosimo Air Base and Sigonella Naval Air Station.

The USAF also stored nuclear weapons at Aviano and Ghedi air bases in northern Italy, home to the USAF 31st Fighter Wing and 704th Munitions Support Squadron respectively. I'd say they were quickly evacuated to Comiso in Sicily with the USAF 487th Tactical Missile Wing. I think US Navy nuclear weapons in Italy were also stored in Sigonella so Sicily would make even more sense. The US Army 173rd Airborne Brigade was also based in Italy and could also have been used to secure US nuclear weapons. However securing stock of US W70 and W23 warheads intended for use by Italian Army Lance missiles and artillery may have been more of a problem.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by mpipes

In the campaign I had....

With the launch of strategic nuclear weapons against neutral countries, the Italians finally have had enough. Despite suffering several NATO nuclear strikes, Italian ire focuses on the Soviets, and the government’s decision to align with the New Warsaw Pact. Italians take to the streets in open rebellion against the government, seizing control as the military stands by at first and then joins the rebellion. The Socialist Italian Prime Minister and his deputy are captured by mobs and lynched, the Foreign Minister is burned to death in a Molotov cocktail attack on his villa outside Rome, and the Defense Minister is arrested near Milan and given a brief “trial” before being shot by a firing squad in Milan’s main square. Hundreds of other leftist politicians and their families are ruthlessly hunted down and killed. In one infamous incident, at least 1500 are locked in a heavily fallout contaminated prison near Foggia and left to die. Italian units cease combat operations and retreat back toward Italy under white flags. Within two weeks a new pro-NATO government takes full control and Italy repudiates its treaties with Greece and the Warsaw Pact, ordering its troops back to Italian territory and declaring a general cease fire with NATO before Christmas.

The Italian Army successfully re-organizes and rebuilds through March 1998. Secret negotiations take place with NATO partners in December 1997 and January 1998, as the Italians unsuccessfully attempt to bring France and Belgium back into the alliance. Italy makes assurances to German and Austrian leaders that the country plans to rejoin the war as a NATO member. Italian and NATO POWs held by these reconciled NATO partners are repatriated to their respective countries, with several thousand Italians and other NATO troops rejoining their respective national militaries.

Italian troops in conjunction with Austrian rear guard troops force the passes into eastern Austria and penetrate to the Czech border as the Italians re-enter the war on the NATO side, rolling up the Pact forces as they tear into the Pact’s flank. The combined NATO force enters Czech territory before running out of steam after capturing Budweis. However, NATO is spent at this point and is not in a logistical position to make any further follow up. Stories start to circulate of clashes between Czechoslovakian 24th Motor Rifle Division troops and Soviet troops relieving them of occupation duty in Austria, when the 24th's commander (backed by his commissar) refuses to hand over scarce vehicles and supplies. The 24th MRD is quickly and quietly recalled home given internal security duties at home, where it is noted they take great delight in hunting down Soviet deserters and marauders who try to cross the Carpathian Mountains.

In November the Soviet 30th Guards Motor Rifle Division is ordered to move to Ljubljana in Yugoslavia in preparation for attacking supply links to the Italian Folgore Mechanized Division and associated Austrian militia troops (which have been attempting to drive out the last of the Soviet forces and capture Graz, Austria). The 30th delays, making excuse after excuse before eventually declaring that they will no longer follow orders. It is only the latest in a string of incidents where Pact divisions have refused to obey orders.

I think the fact that Italy joined the Warsaw Pact in T2K was stretching reality too far in my opinion. Italy's democratic traditions and Western culture are just to strong for that to happen. There are plenty of Italian communists but they are a minority in Italian politics, and I think they are more of the champagne communist variety. Also Italian military links with other NATO countries and the US are also too strong for this to happen, in fact it might have even led to a military coup by disgruntled Italian forces.

Originally Posted by mpipes

As for the nuclear weapons...
The primary concern of the US military would be to get the nuclear weapons out. Without going into classified details....in the event of a possible compromise of a nuclear weapon, commanders are authorized to TAKE ANY AND ALL STEPS to prevent it. And I do mean authority to do ANYTHING. At the very least, sabotage.

I could see the US quickly removing the GLCM's which were under US control, but the other nuclear weapons were under joint control and could have led to some problems if the Italian government nationalised them and the US tried to forcibly remove them from Italy. Also a US attack on nuclear weapons storage bases in Italy would have led to Italy declaring war against the US very quickly. This would have caused a severe problem for NATO who was fighting Soviet and WP in Central Europe at this time, and also would have exposed US forces in the Mediterranean and the Middle East to Italian attack (or allowed the Soviets to use Italian bases).

[mpipes]

Originally Posted by RN7

I could see the US quickly removing the GLCM's which were under US control, but the other nuclear weapons were under joint control and could have led to some problems if the Italian government nationalised them and the US tried to forcibly remove them from Italy. Also a US attack on nuclear weapons storage bases in Italy would have led to Italy declaring war against the US very quickly. This would have caused a severe problem for NATO who was fighting Soviet and WP in Central Europe at this time, and also would have exposed US forces in the Mediterranean and the Middle East to Italian attack (or allowed the Soviets to use Italian bases).

US planning and treaties makes it very clear that under "joint control" or not, the US never looses ownership of the nuke. The US will never allow even the closest ally to gain sole control over a US nuclear weapon....simply will not happen This, in no small part, led to France leaving the NATO military command structure, as the French wanted its own control over the ultimate use of nuclear weapons rather than an American President. It is also the reason why the UK arms its Trident IIs with UK owned and designed weapons. Make no mistake, the US will go to war with an ally when it comes to trying to usurp US protocols and seize the weapons for their own use. Also, the permissive action links and protocols make it impossible for an ally to use the weapon without the necessary codes. While I have no actual knowledge of this, given classified protocols I did know about, I always doubted the PAL codes were available at an overseas base and the codes would only be communicated to the base after war broke out. Remember, we maintain weapons (admitted or not) in countries with varying degrees of stability, and we historically had weapons in countries that have had coups (South Korea, Libya, Turkey, etc), so security of the weapons in the context of attempted military seizure have been planned for.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by mpipes

US planning and treaties makes it very clear that under "joint control" or not, the US never looses ownership of the nuke. The US will never allow even the closest ally to gain sole control over a US nuclear weapon....simply will not happen This, in no small part, led to France leaving the NATO military command structure, as the French wanted its own control over the ultimate use of nuclear weapons rather than an American President. It is also the reason why the UK arms its Trident IIs with UK owned and designed weapons. Make no mistake, the US will go to war with an ally when it comes to trying to usurp US protocols and seize the weapons for their own use. Also, the permissive action links and protocols make it impossible for an ally to use the weapon without the necessary codes. While I have no actual knowledge of this, given classified protocols I did know about, I always doubted the PAL codes were available at an overseas base and the codes would only be communicated to the base after war broke out. Remember, we maintain weapons (admitted or not) in countries with varying degrees of stability, and we historically had weapons in countries that have had coups (South Korea, Libya, Turkey, etc), so security of the weapons in the context of attempted military seizure have been planned for.

France actually developed its own atomic and thermonuclear weapons without outside assistance in the 1960's. Before DeGaulle became French President in 1958 Italy and West Germany had also joined the French Euratom programme to produce their own nuclear weapons.

Britain played a not so-insignificant role in the Second World War Manhattan Project which developed the first American atomic bomb, but after the war America wasn't willing to share its nuclear weapons technology with Britain. So Britain built its own weapons and delivery systems in the 1950's. Since 1958 America and Britain share classified information with each other including nuclear weapons technology, and Britain can use American nuclear weapons and power designs, and also test British nuclear weapons in American test sites. British nuclear weapons are still British, but since 1962 all British delivery systems are American (Polaris and Trident) mainly due to cost reasons.

One of the main reasons for US nuclear sharing with NATO allies was to prevent more European countries from developing nuclear weapons by themselves. This was specifically designed towards Germany, but Italy would also be a country capable of producing its own nuclear weapons. Unlike South Korea, Libya and Turkey were the US has stored nuclear weapons but does not give joint control over them, Italy with other closer NATO allies takes common decisions on nuclear weapons policy with the US, maintains technical equipment required for the use of nuclear weapons, as well as storing nuclear weapons on its territory. They may or may not have some knowledge of US nuclear codes for weapons stored in Italy, but I would say the Italian government would have Italian intelligence agents doing their best to find out what they are if Italy is planning to nationalise US nuclear weapons.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by mpipes

US planning and treaties makes it very clear that under "joint control" or not, the US never looses ownership of the nuke. The US will never allow even the closest ally to gain sole control over a US nuclear weapon....simply will not happen This, in no small part, led to France leaving the NATO military command structure, as the French wanted its own control over the ultimate use of nuclear weapons rather than an American President. It is also the reason why the UK arms its Trident IIs with UK owned and designed weapons. Make no mistake, the US will go to war with an ally when it comes to trying to usurp US protocols and seize the weapons for their own use. Also, the permissive action links and protocols make it impossible for an ally to use the weapon without the necessary codes. While I have no actual knowledge of this, given classified protocols I did know about, I always doubted the PAL codes were available at an overseas base and the codes would only be communicated to the base after war broke out. Remember, we maintain weapons (admitted or not) in countries with varying degrees of stability, and we historically had weapons in countries that have had coups (South Korea, Libya, Turkey, etc), so security of the weapons in the context of attempted military seizure have been planned for.

When I was in Special Weapons, we spent half our time training for the destruction of those rounds so they (and us) wouldn't fall into enemy hands (due to the "forward deployment" of tube-launched nuclear weapons on the battlefield). We would mount the fuse on the weapon and put a special "shaped charge" over them that, when detonated, would destroy the fuse, weapon, and ALL equipment and manuals in the section. This would also turn the area into a MAJOR HAZMAT SITE for about 20,000 years. EVERYONE in Special Weapons was REQUIRED to pass this DEM/EOD procedure each year to even be in Special Weapons. In fact, my exceptional performance in this area is what led to me being given the chance to take a more "involved" demolitions course. Man did I LOVE blowing S**T up. I miss that as much as firing the "Big Guns" (and yes, they are GUNS... as in crew served weapons...NOT male body parts like the Drill Sergeant taught all you 11bravos).

If we had PALS and the Authorization, things would get REALLY interesting as the attackers (and ALL of the Special Weapons) disappeared "in a blinding flash of light." This is, of course, the method of "last resort."

[mpipes]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

If we had PALS and the Authorization, things would get REALLY interesting as the attackers (and ALL of the Special Weapons) disappeared "in a blinding flash of light." This is, of course, the method of "last resort."

He said it first...but yea...the weapon will NOT be compromised.