Non-Morrow Project Weapons

[ChalkLine]

An annoying aspect of the rules book is that while it carefully describes and stats the weapons used by Project members it doesn't cover weapons that they may encounter. This means the new GM either makes it up on the fly or uses Morrow Project weapons, the reverse of what is intended.

Now, if we adopt the standard 150 year gap most weapons, especially those with wooden components, will have taken a large amount of damage.
We should adopt Twilight 2000's 'wear value' I think to reflect this.

Anyway, what's some classic US weapons?

The obvious is the AR-15 in it's myriad forms. The Colt 1911 is everwhere too. Anything else?

[ChalkLine]

On top of this, I think little thought has been given to modern firearms built with little tooling. While it may seem that black powder weapons are obvious it's more likely in my mind that knowledge pertaining to firearms and ammunition would not be lost quickly. The modern metallic cartridge is the ultimate weapon humans have designed and it's not going away.

So, can you make ammo without modern manufacturing? Most definitely. This was covered in T2K with 'The Ammunition Factory'. I'm sad to say I can't find the original author but here is the article;

The Ammunition Factory
In order to start producing munitions, one needs to establish several feeder industries. Some of these may already be present, but cannot deliver goods reliably unless they have a contract, and perhaps even downpayment for goods, or are run by the munitions factory itself.
Munitions are basically explosives, propellants and casings. Some advanced munitions require special preparations, but they cannot be made in primitive industrial settings. Casings and projectiles can be made in a dedicated machine shop, but are most easily made by drop forging some low melting point metal (lead/copper). Explosives need several sources, which will be divided into two categories, a Nitrogen source, and an organic source.
Reloading bullets requires cordite (the propellant) and a high explosive primer (cap). More primitive weapons can use nitrocotton or gunpowder (as a propellant), and there are a variety of more primitive primers (fulminate, perchlorate, etc).
Gunpowder is the easiest to make, and it can have several sources for nitrogen, and needs no organic. The formula is saltpetre (70%) Charcoal (20-30%) and sulphur (0-10%). Sulphur can be left out, but the powder is worse. Sulphureous coal (lignite) is a good source of carbon. Saltpetre can be made by straining and drying animal wastes (as was done in the Victorian age), or by finding deposits (Dif:Geo). Alternatives include charcoal (wood) or sugar for a carbon source. A Bioreactor can be set up as a side industry to fix atmospheric nitrogen (Avg:bio, Avg:cve). This would take several weeks (2-5) to isolate the bacterial strains, during which time the reactor could be built. It requires sterile conditions (pressurised steam to empty the reactor), a large vessel, with automated stirring paddles (motorised, 1Kw/100l), and filtered aeration (Motor-pump, 1Kw/100L) Each 100L vessel would be able to fix around 50 grams nitrogen per period. The nitrogen (as nitrate) would be distilled (just as in ethanol distillation), and then salted out with hydroxide (yet another side industry, but a simple one). The liquid sodium nitrate (saltpetre) would then be crystallised, dried, and powdered. Manufacture of the gunpowder is simply combining the powder elements and heat-rolling them into beads.
To make Cordite or Primers, a higher level of industry is required. Heated reaction vessels, capable of withstanding high temperature and pressure are needed to force the organic reactions to make the high explosives. A source of organic chemicals (toluene, acetaldehyde, and acetylene) is needed, and can be gotten in two ways. First (and easiest) is the fractional distillation of petroleum. Since Petroleum is not commonly available (though it may be a good side industry to get involved in), this is not used. The other way is again by bioreactors. A good source of natural gas is to make a huge (several hundred meter) pile of rotting garbage, and sink large pipes into the heart of the pile. This will generate 20-50 cubic meters of Natural gas per period (enough to run dozens of modern households, or one industry), and will start producing within 2-3 months of deposition. A quicker alternative is to isolate specific fermentational bacteria (Avg:bio) and extract the organics through fractional distillation. Bioreactors can generate up to 1kg of organics per day per 100L, though good strains (dif:bio) can double that. (Incidentally, this is how TNT was made during WWII).
Once the primer industry is set-up, it can instantly make all kinds of high explosives, from TNT to primercord. Plastic Explosives require several more high temp/high pressure steps and must be more carefully monitored (permanent chemical engineers on staff). Production of course depends on the quality of worker, the quality of equipment and management. Rough figures are given for small industries
Gunpowder industry, consumes 500kg animal wastes per day, 10 workers, Large water-tanks, several large sieve boxes (10mx3m), large drying beds. Buys 10kg coal per day, uses small wood fired stove (5kg wood per day). Manufactures 50kg gunpowder on a good day. Requires Avg:Cve and Ezy:Chm to setup and ezy:chm to manage.
Gunpowder industry, consumes 100kg crop field wastes (200kg wild plant material), 10kg edible foods. 5 workers. 4 large (500L) bioreactors (1 going at all times). Has attached Microbiology lab with sterile hood (avg:Cve+Ezy:Bio). Buys 20kg coal per day. Autoclave and pressure steam lines (consumes 15kg wood/day). Standard medium still (with power req for 1 period). Large drying beds, Produces 100kg gunpowder on a good day. Setting up a Bioreactor is Avg:Cve+Avg:bio.
High Explosives industry. Consumes 100kg crop field wastes, 10kg saltpetre, all the parts of a bio-gunpowder industry, Two high pressure vessels, 15 workers, 1-2 permanent chemical engineers (CHM>4), pressure hoses, valves, gauges, "plumbing". Produces 20kg of high explosives / primers on a good day. Add two extra pressure vessels, and double the number of Bioreactors to get Plastique production at 10Kg per day.
To calculate bullet loads, assume 20% of the mass of the bullet (in the listings) is propellant, and 1% is primer. The rest is cartridge and projectile.
Mortar shells are 30% high explosive (for HE), 20% propellant, 1% primer.
Grenades are 40% HE, 1% primer (the rest is a metal casing which fragments).
Dynamite is 85% HE 15% stabiliser.
Halving the investment into the industry (roughly half of the things) will reduce the efficiency, 30kg gunpowder, and 6kg HE. Each HE type must be specified, and it takes 1 week to shift production from point of declaration (but no production is lost, there is just that much lag). Types of HE are Cordite (for bullet propellant), TNT (for HE rounds), Primer, and Nitroglycerine (for dynamite).


Using Gunpowder gives each small arm a maintenance value of 2 (2 hours per week cleaning) and the weapons must be cleaned up after every major battle. The range and penetration value are worse (range ½, Pen+1), and the gun will jam 20% of the time a 10 is rolled. If daily maintenance is not kept up, the jam% increases to 80% on 10, if weekly maintenance is not kept up, the gun will jam on 9 or 10 (80%), and it will get progressively worse (jam 7-10, 6-10, etc). Black powder weapons are exempt from this, and only need a weekly cleaning.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Interesting question in the Morrow Project there seem to be relatively few industrial societies, just the KFS, Maxwell's Militia seem particularly large. Further each of these societies would have to produce everything from scratch. The high quality steel for the gun barrels, the copper for the bullet casings. There wouldn't be any old Warsaw pact warehouses with a million bullets in them.

So the chances are these post-apocalyptic nations would be building guns, but simpler, more robust ones without a need for complex mechanisms, fully automatic settings or exotic materials.

If they built something like an M16 it would most likely be one with a wooden stock, semi auto only, a full length barrel and a 10 round magazine (discourages waste and less of an issue if the springs wear out or are made from cheaper material).

I'm sure an earlier post pointed out how labour intensive making an M1911 actually is. So maybe replaced by a more basic revolver, does the job perfectly well for a lot less effort to build.

Some of the earlier supplements suggest interesting anomalies, like Krell using Gatling guns (jam less often), MM the Garand rifle (simple and robust to build, with long range and respects skill) and of course the KFS distributing crappy trade muskets to keep the local tribes poorly armed.

nb 2 thoughts

1 What's the standard or near standard Krell weapon? It's never mentioned in any supplement they turn up in.

2 When societies use muskets, do they come with ball or milieu bullets?

[dragoon500ly]

Talking about older revolvers, the classic Colt Peacemaker could be repaired by a blacksmith using simple tools.

[ChalkLine]

Great points. The old revolvers were built in a time that predated huge transport of components, they built the entire thing right there.

[ChalkLine]

I'm quoting wikipedia's 'Khyber Pass Copy'

A Khyber Pass copy is a firearm manufactured by cottage gunsmiths in the Khyber Pass region between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The area has long had a reputation for producing unlicensed, homemade copies of firearms using whatever materials are available – more often than not, railway rails, scrap motor vehicles, and other scrap metal. The quality of such firearms varies widely, ranging from as good as a factory-produced example to dangerously poor.

The most commonly encountered Khyber Pass copies are of British military firearms, notably Martini–Henry, Martini–Enfield, and Lee–Enfield rifles, although AK-47 rifles, Webley Revolvers, Tokarev TT-33s, Colt M1911s and Browning Hi-Powers have also been encountered. In the United States, a Kalashnikov-style rifle composed of a mix of parts from various style AK rifles is sometimes referred to as a Khyber Pass AK because, like Khyber guns, they are unlike any rifle produced by a factory or issued by a regular military force. The typical example of a "Khyber Pass AK" is a stamped receiver AKM chambered for the 7.62×39mm cartridge, fitted with the triangular folding stock common to Russian AKS-74 rifles.

The Khyber Pass gunsmiths first acquired examples of the various British service arms during nineteenth-century British military expeditions in the North-West Frontier, which they used to make copies. During World War II, some locally organised irregular forces were issued Khyber Pass-made rifles – partly for financial reasons and partly because there was concern the troops would steal their rifles and desert if issued higher-quality British or Indian manufactured rifles.[1]

Identification
Khyber Pass rifles are usually copied exactly from a "master" rifle (which may itself be a Khyber Pass copy), markings and all. It's not uncommon to see Khyber Pass rifles with numerous errors and particular identifying factors, notably:

Spelling errors in the markings (the most common of which is EИFIELD for ENFIELD)[2][3]
V.R. (Victoria Regina) cyphers dated after 1901 – Queen Victoria died in 1901, so any rifles made after this should be stamped "E.R" (Edward Rex, referring to King Edward VII)
Generally inferior workmanship, including weak or soft metal, poorly finished wood, and badly struck markings.
Afghanistan was a point of conflict between the British Empire and Imperial Russia throughout the 19th century, from which it is reasonable to assume that tools and expertise relevant to both cultures were accumulated by native gunsmiths. Rather than a translation error, a reversed "N" or "L" in ENFIELD may be the Cyrillic "И" and "Г" characters, with the gunsmith using whatever letter punches similar to original letters, but ensuring it can be identified as duplicate to avoid legal issues of using original trademark names.

Ammunition
Not only are there counterfeit weapons, but there is counterfeit ammunition as well. Typically they are based on low-powered modern cartridges. .30 bore cartridges are compatible with 7.63×25mm Mauser or 7.62×25mm Tokarev. .32 bore cartridges are compatible with .32 Auto Colt Pistol / 7.65mm Browning (7.65×17mmSR). 12 bore cartridges are 12 gauge (18.5x70mmR) shotgun shells.

44 bore cartridges are compatible with the 7.92×33mm Kurz round for the World War Two era StG 44. Pakistan has a ban on rifles designed to fire military cartridges; the use of the 44 bore cartridge was a loophole in the law until specifically banned in 2012. It was used in AKM copies chambered or modified for it. It was a popular cartridge because it was easy to modify AKMs to fire it but still fed from standard AK magazines. Saquib brand makes 44 bore ammunition.

The ammunition used in the Khyber Pass region is often underloaded, being made from a variety of powders or even old film (which contains nitrocellulose, a key component of smokeless powder); Khyber Pass Copy rifles cannot be expected to withstand the pressures generated by modern commercial ammunition. A few collectors have made extremely mild handloaded cartridges for their Khyber Pass rifles and fired them, at substantial personal risk.[citation needed]

The packaging and headstamps are often forged versions of quality foreign brands like GECO (Gustav Genschow & Co.), Golden Tiger (Vympel IIRC), China Sport (NORINCO), MEN (Metallwerk Elisenhütte Nassau), and PPU (Prvi Partizan Užice). Local counterfeits have colorful brand-name packaging like Buffalo, Diamond, Double Dragon, Double Star, Federal SKF, Goodluck, Gorilla, and Tiger SBR.

The Khyber Arms Company, a local ammunition manufacturer, makes the Expert or X-Pert brand. It uses counterfeit Winchester ammunition packaging with cartridges stamped with fake NORINCO State Factory 311 headstamps.

New casings and bullet jackets are usually copper-washed steel, like Chinese ammunition. The casings are sometimes recycled from scrounged US or NATO military brass casings. 5.56mm NATO cases are cut-down and reshaped to make .30 bore rounds. 9×19mm Parabellum cases are cut down to make reloaded .380 ACP / 9×17mm Short or 9×18mm Makarov rounds.

[Matt W]

nb 2 thoughts

1 What's the standard or near standard Krell weapon? It's never mentioned in any supplement they turn up in.

I would suggest that Krell probably use cheap shotguns for most troops - and ex-Project stuff for their more experienced people. So lots of Hp-35 pistols, Uzis and the MAC-10

2 When societies use muskets, do they come with ball or milieu bullets?

If a group uses muskets, they would use ball. As far as I know, the Minié bullet only works with a rifled barrel

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by Matt W

f a group uses muskets, they would use ball. As far as I know, the Minié bullet only works with a rifled barrel

Minié bullets can be used in smooth bore muskets. They benefit with a higher muzzle velocity, but the round itself in no more accurate, some claim less accurate as it will not be spin stabilized.

[ChalkLine]

Non-Morrow Project Weapons
The following weapons are found in the USA in quantity and the stats given are survivals from before the apocalypse. For a post-apocalypse low pressure weapon multiply the E Factor and range by 0.8

AK-47 or AKM, Kalishnakov
A basic 7.62x39 version of the Kalishnakov family. This weapon is made from many pressed steel components which makes adding sights difficult. A gunsmith/fitter can make a milled upper or bridge from the lower which will accept a sight rail as an average task.
Many post apocalyptic versions will only fire semi automatically. These can be converted to fully automatic fire with an average machining roll and 0.1kg steel

Name AK-47 or AKM
Cal 7.62 x 39
E Factor 16
WT. (Empty) 3.47kg
Barrel 41.5cm
Length 88cm (64.5cm with folding stock)
Eff. Range 350m
Max. Range 800m
Type of Fire Automatic or Semi Auto
Rate of Fire
- Semi Automatic 40rpm
- Full Automatic100rpm (Cyclic)600rpm
Feed Device 30 rd magazine
Feed Device Wt. 0.43kg
Basic Load 6 magazines
Load Wt. 3.74kg
Total Wt. 6.32kg
MP Deployment Not deployed

SKS
A precursor to the AK-47, this weapon is more accurate but only fires semi automatically. There is a 60% chance that the weapon has a milled receiver.

Name SKS
Cal 7.62 x 39
E Factor 16
WT. (Empty) 3.85kg
Barrel 52cm
Length 102cm
Eff. Range 500m
Max. Range 800m
Type of Fire Semi Auto
Rate of Fire
- Semi Automatic 40rpm
Feed Device 10 rd integral magazine, 10rd stripper clips
Feed Device Wt. .16kg
Basic Load 6 stripper clips in pouches
Load Wt. 3.85kg
Total Wt. 8.2kg
MP Deployment Not Deployed

Note that there is an 85% chance the weapon is fitted with a folding bayonet of either the spike or blade variety

M1911 pistol
This weapon is extremely abundant. Most notably the weapon is very slim thus will not make much of a bulge when hidden under clothing.

Name M1911
Cal 11.5x32.4mm (.45 ACP)
E Factor 10 (?)
WT. (Empty) 1.1kg
Barrel 12.7cm
Length 21cm
Eff. Range 50m
Max. Range 100m
Type of Fire Semi Auto
Rate of Fire
- Semi Automatic 30rpm
Feed Device 7 rd magazine
Feed Device Wt. 0.3kg
Basic Load 2 magazines
Load Wt. 0.6kg
Total Wt. 1.7kg
MP Deployment Not Deployed

FN FAL Battle Rifle
Once known as 'The Right Arm of the Free World' this weapon is a stalwart favourite. They have a variety of magazines available but this entry depicts the issue 20rd box magazine and this weapon accepts standard NATO 20 round magazines such as those used in the M14.

Name FN FAL
Cal 7.62 x 51
E Factor 17
WT. (Empty) 4.3kg
Barrel 53.3cm
Length 109cm (84.5.5cm with folding stock)
Eff. Range 650m
Max. Range 1500m
Type of Fire Automatic or Semi Auto
Rate of Fire
- Semi Automatic 30rpm
- Full Automatic 80rpm (Cyclic)700rpm
Feed Device 20 rd magazine
Feed Device Wt. 0.75kg
Basic Load 6 magazines
Load Wt. 4.5kg
Total Wt. 8.8
MP Deployment Not Deployed

M1 Carbine
A small proto-PDW from WW2 firing what is in essence a large pistol round which was actually designed from the ground up as a carbine round. The M1 comes with a 15 rd or 30rd magazine. The M2 was fully auto but is unlikely to be found although stats are provided. This weapon has essentially no felt recoil and thus is suitable for small framed shooter. It is physically quite small and was issued to truck drivers among many others. This weapon does not have a bayonet lug

Name M1 Carbine
Cal 7.62 x 33 (.30 Carbine)
E Factor 12
WT. (Empty) 2.4kg
Barrel 46cm
Length 90cm
Eff. Range 200m
Max. Range 800m
Type of Fire Automatic (M2 only) or Semi Auto
Rate of Fire
- Semi Automatic 40rpm
- Full Automatic 50rpm (Cyclic) 900rpm
Feed Device 15 rd magazine (30rd magazine)
Feed Device Wt. 0.3kg
Basic Load 3 15rd magazines, 2 15rd magazines in pouch on weapon's butt
Load Wt. 0.9kg
Total Wt. 3.3kg
MP Deployment Not Deployed

SVD Marksman Rifle, 'Dragunov'
A popular Russian import, the SVD is also equipped with a bayonet and a standard issue scope (that can be removed and has its own pouch. The sight, the PSO-1, is capable of detecting infra-red illuminators but cannot be used to see in the IR spectrum

Name SVD Marksman Rifle
Cal 7.62 x 54R
E Factor 17
WT. (Empty) 4.3kg (with scope)
Barrel 62cm
Length 122.5cm
Eff. Range 1300m
Max. Range 1600m
Type of Fire Automatic or Semi Auto
Rate of Fire
- Semi Automatic 30rpm
Feed Device 10rd magazine
Feed Device Wt. 0.3kg
Basic Load 5 magazines
Load Wt. 1.5kg
Total Wt. 5.8kg
MP Deployment Not Deployed

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

On top of this, I think little thought has been given to modern firearms built with little tooling. While it may seem that black powder weapons are obvious it's more likely in my mind that knowledge pertaining to firearms and ammunition would not be lost quickly. The modern metallic cartridge is the ultimate weapon humans have designed and it's not going away.

So, can you make ammo without modern manufacturing? Most definitely. This was covered in T2K with 'The Ammunition Factory'. I'm sad to say I can't find the original author but here is the article;

After reading this article I tried to learn more. Most bioreactor use concerning TNT now is to degrade TNT contaminated soil, not to produce TNT. Going to the source of this article on a T2K Wikia, I see the original work was done by a Matt Geisler. Unfortunately the external link is broken. There is an associate professor named Matt Geisler specializing in plant biology. If this is the author, he may know more about bioreactors than me. While I did work in a lab where we did pilot studies and scale up projects using bioreactors for a wide variety of tasks, my job did not include working with the actual bacteria. But in every case, the process was quite energy intensive. Not a problem in communities that are TL-C, B or A. But those tend to be rare, so I don't think such an ammunition plant would be encountered often.

The article also mention needing 1-2 full-time chemical engineers. In 2016, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics shows there were 32,700 chemical engineers. Assuming a uniform distribution and leaving 5%, we get 1,635 surviving after the war. Given the number of projects these engineers could be working on (i.e. water treatment, sewage treatment, fuel production) the pool of explosive makers is even smaller adding to the rarity of such a plant.

Blackpowder is much simpler to make and would suffice in most situations. It's nice to think big, but often good enough is what wins.

[ChalkLine]

Very true and I think I may have given the impression that ammo plants would be common. The thing an ammo plant gives you is your troops can use automatic weapons; a huge advantage. Ammo plants would only be available to upper tier and quite large powers. There'd probably be only one in any region if at all.

Under-powered ammo and low pressure repeating arms would make a good trade item. Just because the world has ended for many people does not mean we go back to the 1800s, but more like clever fixes.

I think the Kentucky Trade Rifle got me here. Realistically most decent settlements can make this out of better steel, which is very common.

This should be another topic but things like 'use a 1700s plough' are silly. Old machinery is still there to be found, you just have to find a way to horse or ox power it. We won't have wooden wagon wheels when there's literally millions of steel wheels and axles to be found.

[mmartin798]

Ah, I see where you are coming from now. And while it is true a community could scavenge steel to make a rifle better than the Kentucky Trade Rifle, you have to remember the Trade Rifle is the only rifle the KFS allow civilians to use. I am sure regular inspections of firearms that are looking for the official KFS stamping and reports of violators making better rifles by the secret police that lead to destruction of villages keeps people from making them.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

This was covered in T2K with 'The Ammunition Factory'. I'm sad to say I can't find the original author but here is the article;

Google says. Matt Geisler weapons and ammunition factory.

[ChalkLine]

That file of 'all the guns' never turned up so I'm necromancing this thread.

In the Roll20 game I'm in I've swung a HK UMP 45. At present I'm using the weapon's physical statistics but the Grease Gun's stats. Does this seem right?

[mmartin798]

Here is a stat block for the HK UMP45. Put the maximum range at 300m since you have to adjust for 20mil of drop. The E-Factor at that range is also 6.

[Desert Mariner]

I was beaten to it but here's my stat block on the .45 UMP. I also have the 9mm and .40 versions worked up.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

An annoying aspect of the rules book is that while it carefully describes and stats the weapons used by Project members it doesn't cover weapons that they may encounter. This means the new GM either makes it up on the fly or uses Morrow Project weapons, the reverse of what is intended.

Now, if we adopt the standard 150 year gap most weapons, especially those with wooden components, will have taken a large amount of damage.
We should adopt Twilight 2000's 'wear value' I think to reflect this.

Anyway, what's some classic US weapons?

The obvious is the AR-15 in it's myriad forms. The Colt 1911 is everwhere too. Anything else?

There is many weapons given stats in the modules, the Armory, various fanzines, and on this forum.

Really if you find something you want to use, there probably is a justification for it being in the U.S. somehow.

Use the E- factor formula and give them some stats.