Bioweapons

[Legbreaker]

We've got basic information on a number of diseases in the rules, but has anyone expanded on these and stated them (and others) out as bioweapons?
My research has found the USSR and later Russia had an absolutely MASSIVE amount of them and were well prepared to use them. Some of what they had could be delivered via ICBM, had a 100% fatality rate and was unimaginably infectious.
The stuff of nightmares....

Just to put it into perspective, Iraq which had an extensive bioweapon program (prior to 1991 at least) had a total nation production capacity of 77,000 litres. In 1993 just ONE production centre (Berdsk near Novosibirsk) had a capacity of 2,560,000 litres - 33 times greater in just ONE of their many facilities!

[pmulcahy11b]

The problem with biological warfare, especially with modern agents (for lack of a better word in my brain right now) is that they can (and this is an actual military term) "boomerang." They can come back to your own troops and lands, sometimes decades later. Those fancy shots you gave your people against your version of the illness may not protect them 6 months later (or whatever time period). And viruses, in particular, mutate fast -- what you let loose on the battlefield two weeks ago might blow right through your special immunizations when it comes back to you. Or become harmless. Or turn into something worse -- "I just ate breakfast with him an hour ago and he's already dead? Does that mean I'm sick too?"

In every OPLAN (Yes, I seen a few complete and incomplete ones in my time in the Army), biowar was the warfare with the fewest realistic options, even more dangerous to the planet than a total nuclear exchange, and something you never want to deal with. Because ultimately. you can't.

[Olefin]

Pretty much adding biowar to T2K makes the war into close to a non-survival event for the human race - which is most likely why the game designers didnt have it part of the timeline. Keep in mind this is a slow ramp up of nukes that allows the world to somehow rebuild so that we are to the stars by 2300AD

I dont see the US or Russians holding back many nukes if suddenly their populations were getting wiped out by bioweapons. Or for that matter France sitting on the sidelines if suddenly the Russians used bioweapons or gave them to other countries and started taking out whole populations with them. Especially once French citizens started dying from them.

Thats why the words smallpox and anthrax as bio weapons being used arent to be found anywhere in T2K.

[Legbreaker]

Although they're nasty and somewhat indiscriminate, they have been used in the past and the Soviets were well prepared to use them again. My research has revealed that they had developed defences in parallel to their offensive capability - not perfect by any means, but it put them in a MUCH better position than the west.
Like any weapon there's a time and a place for them (hopefully nowhere and never, but should we really shove our heads in the sand over the possibility?) Certain regions lend themselves to the use of biologicals more than chemicals or nukes, and other regions make their use near suicidal (transportation links, population density, etc all factor into it).

So, getting back to my original question, has anyone stated them out, even in just a rudimentary way?

Here's a couple of videos on the subject and a link to a page I've found interesting and informative.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvsXCnoETjw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xiR6SD_LFw
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3148622
Also worth a read is this book "Plague Wars: the Terrifying Reality of Biological Warfare".
https://www.worldcat.org/title/plagu.../oclc/47109070

[Silent Hunter UK]

The most realistic option in game would something like putting dead animals in the water supply.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

The most realistic option in game would something like putting dead animals in the water supply.

That's certainly part of it, and absolutely something that would be (and has been) done all around the world. That though really only introduces "basic" diseases such as the rules already cover. I'm looking for the more "supercharged" stuff the Soviets had spent decades developing (and could well still be now given the Russians refuse to allow proper inspections of suspect sites).

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Although they're nasty and somewhat indiscriminate, they have been used in the past...

Aside from Japan's Unit 731's experimentation with bioweapons in China during WW2, when have biological weapons been used in modern warfare?

I tend to agree that bio-weapons weren't used on any significant scale in the Twilight War. First off, nukes and natural epidemics exacerbated by malnutrition, exposure, etc. would reduce population density to the point where bioweapons wouldn't be particularly effective. By the same token, by early 1998 or so, military units are smaller and more dispersed, making bioweapons a less efficient option than tactical nukes, chem weapons, or even conventional artillery.

However, if used before the nuclear exchange began, bioweapons would have been much more efficient killers, for the reasons stated by previous posters. However, with all three NBC genies out of their respective bottles, the global casualty rates would surely exceed what's described in canon. It's essentially overkill.

On a side note, in a T2K PbP campaign in which I play, the PCs may have discovered a crude attempt to introduce cholera into regional water supplies. They recently found a cache of urine jars that may contain naturally-occurring cholera bacterium in an underground bunker belonging to a cult-like bandit group in northeastern Poland. This after having encountered a couple of groups (one bandit, one civilian) suffering from a mysterious illness.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Aside from Japan's Unit 731's experimentation with bioweapons in China during WW2, when have biological weapons been used in modern warfare?

Rhodesia in the late 1970s, possibly South Africa in the 1980s under Project Coast, and arguably Vietnam (herbicides are technically chemical but often get grouped in with biological weapons because they work by triggering biotoxins in plants).


It's probably more well-documented in terrorist attacks, such as the 1984 Rajneeshee attack at The Dalles (salmonella), the 1990 and 1993 Aum Shinrikyo attacks (botulinum and anthrax), and the 2001, 2003, and 2013 attacks through the mail in the United States (anthrax, ricin, and ricin respectively)

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

...
In every OPLAN (Yes, I seen a few complete and incomplete ones in my time in the Army), biowar was the warfare with the fewest realistic options, even more dangerous to the planet than a total nuclear exchange, and something you never want to deal with. Because ultimately. you can't.

This is why during my time, we did not play for Biowar. The plan was that if they hit us with bio, we hit them with a nuke, it is safer, and cleaner. Chemical did not scare us to bad, nuke was bad, but things you can do to deal with the aftermath, but Bio just no thank you, so easy to get out of control.

[Legbreaker]

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks may have or may not happened, the actual evidence (see links previously posted for some of it) shows that bioweapons existed. In the case of the USSR they had absolute MOUNTAINS of the stuff, as well as the ability and will to use them (at least the military did, the politicians were kept in the dark for the most part with regard to just what the capability was).

All I'm after, and as stated several times already, is has anyone attempted to stat them out?

[Olefin]

They existed yes - but except for one missile payload they are never mentioned in the entire T2K canon as being used - not in V1 or V2.2 or any module outside of Bears Den. Which shows that even though they had the stockpiles they werent used at least not in any appreciative amount. Keep in mind that the Germans and Allies had huge stocks of chemical weapons in WW2 - and except for the accidental discharge at Bari from the ship being sunk bringing them to Italy to stock pile them there was no chemical warfare use of any of that stockpile.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

So, bioweapons.
Has anyone created stats for them?