Black Sea Naval Actions

[Raellus]

I can't find any mention, at least not in the ref. manual's v1 history, of any naval actions on the Black Sea. The closest the v1 history comes is the Greek navy's attack on the Turkey-bound supply convoy on its way to Izmir by way of the Aegean, but that's on the other side of the Bosporus.

I reckon that there must have been some fighting between the Soviet Black Sea Fleet and the Turkish navy, but I'm not aware of any mentioned in canon. Am I missing something somewhere?

The Bulgarian and Romanian navies were tiny, but there probably would have been naval skirmishes, at least, between them during the first phase of fighting in Romania (12/20/1996- late summer, 1997). I suppose it's entirely possible that the Romanian navy, such as it was, was completely destroyed at anchor by Soviet Black Sea Fleet forces, and/or the Soviet Air Force. I can see why this might not have earned a mention in canon (given the insignificance of the Romanian navy), but it doesn't seem likely that Turkey/NATO would cede freedom of navigation in the Black Sea to the Soviets. Something's not adding up.

In a related current events story,

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...leet-last-week

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[Targan]

The use of nukes over open waters might have been a bit more extensive or enthusiastic than nuking land targets. The Black Sea is big enough that the Soviets might have been happy enough to tac nuke any decent-sized enemy naval force it could identify.

[Legbreaker]

You've also got quite a choke point to navigate to get into the Black Sea. Sure you've got allied control of that, but just a couple of subs lurking at the eastern end, plus a determined sea mining effort would utterly scuttle any attempts to force your way in. Add to that the small issue of not actually controlling the Mediterranean end (Greece and Italy are very likely to have something to say about that little detail) and trying to send a decent sized fleet into the Black Sea becomes more trouble than it's worth. Even a single surface combatant is very unlikely to have much fun (and without supporting vessels will soon be on the bottom anyway).
A sub might get through, but again, you've got active PACT naval defence forces watching for something just like that.

As for the Romanians, well, they're much more a defensive force with very limited offensive capability. It's highly likely they'd be quickly eliminated but not before giving the Soviets a bloody nose. Interesting to note that they only had one Kilo class sub delivered in 1986. http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-11302.html

[Raellus]

If a non-Turkey NATO nation tried to force it's way from the Med into the Black Sea, it would probably be mentioned in canon.

The v1 history makes numerous mentions of Soviet and Bulgarian ground operations against Turkey, but nothing of naval actions. I'm not intimately familiar with all of the canon, so I wanted to ask the experts out there if it might have been mentioned in an another source.

Even if not, I figure that's most likely a case of omission on the writers' part than an indication that naval actions between Soviet Black Sea Fleet and the Turkish navy didn't occur at all. They probably thought most T2k refs/players didn't care if the Soviet and Turkish navies clashed once or twice in the Black Sea.

I suppose Targan could be right, though. Perhaps the Soviets just nuked the Turkish navy in the Black Sea. They nuked them on land, and besides Turkey, it was just SSRs all around so, why not?

As for the RNF, Romania's budget problems in the late '80s, I'm not sure that they could afford to put naval ships to sea very often or for very long. In my T2kU, Soviet BSF naval aviation Shturmovik squadrons sank most of the tiny Romanian navy at anchor. A Red Fleet Kilo class diesel submarine sank the lone RN frigate that managed to sortie.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, most of the canon materials focuses on ground forces rather than air and sea power - which makes sense anyway as ships and aircraft are both very resource hungry (just the amount of fuel they burn is horrendous!).

It's no surprise there's nothing mentioned about an attempt to break into the Black Sea - just the brief assessment I made in my previous post would be enough for even the most offensive minded commander to scrub the whole idea as suicidal. It'd be on par with dropping paratroops into Berlin in 1942 and expecting them to survive more than a day!

This of course raises the small question of what happened to the Soviet Black fleet? My thoughts are taken out by airstrikes, nukes and maybe subs (probably Turkish assets) with the remainder relegated to rusting wharf queens due to lack of fuel, ammunition, crew and spare parts (more or less what happened IRL to the Soviet Navy post USSR break up).

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yes, most of the canon materials focuses on ground forces rather than air and sea power - which makes sense anyway as ships and aircraft are both very resource hungry (just the amount of fuel they burn is horrendous!).

You're right, but there brief descriptions of major naval engagements off Norway and the Kola Peninsula, and in the Aegean (the Greeks taking out a NATO fast convoy on its way to Turkey with supplies) so I don't know what to think about why no mention was made of naval warfare on the Black Sea.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's no surprise there's nothing mentioned about an attempt to break into the Black Sea - just the brief assessment I made in my previous post would be enough for even the most offensive minded commander to scrub the whole idea as suicidal. It'd be on par with dropping paratroops into Berlin in 1942 and expecting them to survive more than a day!

You're so right that I doubt anyone tried!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

This of course raises the small question of what happened to the Soviet Black fleet? My thoughts are taken out by airstrikes, nukes and maybe subs (probably Turkish assets) with the remainder relegated to rusting wharf queens due to lack of fuel, ammunition, crew and spare parts (more or less what happened IRL to the Soviet Navy post USSR break up).

I think you're right. Did you read that article I posted the link to about B-1Bs training to take out the Black Sea fleet just last month? Bonkers!