Yugoslavia

[Raellus]

Yugoslavia is one of the most enigmatic locations in T2k (v.1). There are US and Soviet forces there (three divisions a piece, and an Air Assault Brigade for the latter) but it's never made clear in either the v.1 history or the US and Soviet Vehicle Guides why they were sent there.

Yugoslavia started WWIII unified. It declared for NATO after the Soviet invasion of Romania in late December, 1996. It sent mechanized forces to help its neighbor. In August of 1997, Yugoslavia invaded northeastern Italy but the attacking forces were hurled back by the Italians. The Greeks and Albanians invaded Romania in mid-September (the Greeks ultimately annexing Macedonia, creating a rift with Albania).The country was partitioned by the Italians in early 1998. Internecine warfare broke out shortly thereafter (that's a Balkans conflict we can all remember from RL).

It's a mess. So why did the US send forces there (two light infantry divisions in the autumn of 1998, and an infantry division in late '99)? Strategically, what was the point? The Soviets sent forces to Yugoslavia from Romania after its collapse in September 1997. Again, what was the point? Yugoslavia, by that point, was no longer a threat to the WTO.

According to the US Vehicle Guide, the American divisions sent to Yugoslavia end up fighting Croatian and Albanian nationalists instead of the Soviets, Italians, or Greeks. The Soviet Vehicle guide only mentions the Red Army divisions in Yugoslavia fighting partisans. In either case, what's the point?

It seems like a sideshow. I can't understand why, in terms of strategy, either the US or Soviet Union sent forces there (especially the latter, given that its new Warsaw Pact allies, the Italians and Greeks had already defeated the Yugoslavs and ignited internecine warfare. For the US, maybe the Ploesti oil fields in neighboring Romania were the objective? But how are three infantry divisions (two of them light) going to fight their way there and arrive in any shape to eject Soviet Danube Front (consisting of two Armies and an AAB)? That's not going to happen. The v1.0 history suggests that the US 42nd ID was sent to Yugoslavia in late 1999 as a statement of sorts. If so, CivGov's competence in matters of military strategy and geopolitics should be strenuously questioned.

Did the writers have bigger plans for Yugoslavia but not get the chance to follow through on them? Is the question of why the US and/or CCCP send forces to Yugoslavia addressed in an adventure module or Challenge article? Have any of you run or played a Yugoslavian campaign?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Challenge magazine 47 had an article titled Our Friend Albania that touches on the border region with Yugoslavia (Kosovo).
I had a quick look through my copies of Challenge and aside from that one article I don't think there was anything dealing with Yugoslavia.

[Olefin]

Especially considering that the forces were sent AFTER the Mexicans had invaded the US. So those three divisions would have been much better employed against the Soviet and Mexican forces that were on AMERICAN soil - i.e. why the hell were they sent to Yugoslavia?

Those three divisions sent to Texas would probably have retaken most of the state - or sent to CA they would have been enough to at the least send the Mexicans running back to San Diego

Plus NYC is in absolute chaos and you send the 42nd and its tanks to Yugoslavia and leave NYC in the hands of a light infantry division that has no heavy armor?

FYI the write up for the 42nd has a massive typo in it - it says it was dispatched to Europe in Autumn 1999 - then says it fought the Croatians on 10/7/98.

[Southernap]

See page 26 and 27 of the V1.0 book. It lays out the actions of the CENTAG that would had US forces land in Jugoslavia/Yugoslavia. NATO was driving into southern Germany to seize the industrial region that borders along the Czech border region. While the Romanians and Jugoslaivians army was driving north to try and assist and break any lines of communication between the PACT and the Italian/Greek army that had occupied Jugoslavia. The offensive was wasted by the end of the year. It says that the Jugoslavian drive was held up at Lake Balaton, which is located in Hungary. So assume that the Jugoslavians, Romanians, and US forces were driving north up to Hungary and meet up with the German IV and V corps which were in Southern Germany (see the W. German OOB in NATO vehicle guide) that were driving south to meet up.

So more than likely those units from the US were sent to try and help bolster the Jugoslavian push against Italians and make the meet up with the CENTAG and capture those industrial zones not damaged in 1997 of Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and Czech region. The move was probably made before the actions of Mexico and the Soviet forces in Mexico invaded the southern states. At which probably when the ships were at sea that the Mexicans came across and well past the point of radio communication to come back.

Even money guessing the total collapse of all command and control as well as the governmental split in 1997-98, that the JCS only knew what the DIA could tell them from what limited human intelligence could gather and report back via long communications (there manual makes references that even radios are heavily damaged due to EMP effects and and limited to LOS [both due to radiation in the air and real world applications] so you have to daisy-chain radio data back to someplace and hope the message stays together correctly). In my mind then it makes it reasonable that forces were already in transit to their ports of embarking or were embarking when the Mexican's cross the Rio Grande, again if not already at sea. So trying to turn them around to respond to the newest threat wasn't considered until those ships were past a point of no return compared to the fuel already expended.

Plus NYC is in absolute chaos and you send the 42nd and its tanks to Yugoslavia and leave NYC in the hands of a light infantry division that has no heavy armor?

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Similar, examining the Allied Forces experience going through the German forces in Europe and the German forces experiences in Russia showed that armor even then would be dangerous. Which lead to the Soviets to develop the assault guns with a 122m to 152mm gun installed and the Germans to do things like the Strumpanzer and Strumtiger. While the Allied forces never developed specific urban assault vehicles.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Southernap

See page 26 and 27 of the V1.0 book. It lays out the actions of the CENTAG that would had US forces land in Jugoslavia/Yugoslavia. NATO was driving into southern Germany to seize the industrial region that borders along the Czech border region. While the Romanians and Jugoslaivians army was driving north to try and assist and break any lines of communication between the PACT and the Italian/Greek army that had occupied Jugoslavia. The offensive was wasted by the end of the year. It says that the Jugoslavian drive was held up at Lake Balaton, which is located in Hungary. So assume that the Jugoslavians, Romanians, and US forces were driving north up to Hungary and meet up with the German IV and V corps which were in Southern Germany (see the W. German OOB in NATO vehicle guide) that were driving south to meet up.

So more than likely those units from the US were sent to try and help bolster the Jugoslavian push against Italians and make the meet up with the CENTAG and capture those industrial zones not damaged in 1997 of Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and Czech region. The move was probably made before the actions of Mexico and the Soviet forces in Mexico invaded the southern states. At which probably when the ships were at sea that the Mexicans came across and well past the point of radio communication to come back.

Even money guessing the total collapse of all command and control as well as the governmental split in 1997-98, that the JCS only knew what the DIA could tell them from what limited human intelligence could gather and report back via long communications (there manual makes references that even radios are heavily damaged due to EMP effects and and limited to LOS [both due to radiation in the air and real world applications] so you have to daisy-chain radio data back to someplace and hope the message stays together correctly). In my mind then it makes it reasonable that forces were already in transit to their ports of embarking or were embarking when the Mexican's cross the Rio Grande, again if not already at sea. So trying to turn them around to respond to the newest threat wasn't considered until those ships were past a point of no return compared to the fuel already expended.

Thanks. You're right, the timing of the two US light divisions' arrival in Yugoslavia does fit with the Yugoslav's offensive into Hungary, so it stands to reason that they were sent to assist in said. The problematic bit, though, is that in April, the Italians partitioned Yugoslavia into Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia, and the Greeks annexed Macedonia. It seems odd that there's still an intact, unified Yugoslavian army after that, let alone one that would launch a major drive into Hungary.

Also, the Romanians aren't mentioned as being involved at all. According to the v.1 history, the Romanian military was shattered in September of 1997 and the survivors were fighting as partisans in the Carpathians- they would have had their hands full. At no point after 9/15/97 were there less than 7 Soviet divisions in Romania so I just don't see the Romanians participating in a major offensive anywhere other than on home soil.

CivGov sending 42nd ID in late '99 still doesn't make sense, though. Even with fried long-distance coms, by then, CivGov would have to know that turning things around in Yugoslavia was nothing more than a forlorn hope. And by then, Mexico and New America are firmly established as major threats to home soil (not to mention the potential of fighting MilGov forces). The only thing I can think of is that Romania declared its allegiance to CivGov in the spring of 1999, so perhaps sending 42nd ID was a show of solidarity by CivGov. If so, it was a very expensive- wasteful, even- symbolic gesture.

Originally Posted by Southernap

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Strong point. Tanks and IFVs might be useful in the suburbs, but in the built-up areas of the city, they'd be extremely vulnerable to Molotovs tossed from upper floors. If the OPFOR has access to LAW-type weapons, fahgettaboudit!

[Rainbow Six]

Rae, I’m fairly confident that’s a typo and the writers intended for all three Divisions to arrive in 1998. If you look at the US Army Vehicle Guide it states that the 76th and 80th Divisions both came under the command of IV US Corps when they arrived in Yugoslavia in late 1998. The US Army Vehicle Guide also states that IV US Corps HQ arrived in Yugoslavia in the same convoy as the 42nd Division’s 2nd Brigade and for IV Corps to have taken command of the 76th and 80th it follows that it (IV Corps) must have been in situ in 1998. Also, (as has been mentioned) the 42nd is stated as having gone into action against Croatian forces in October 1998.

What I don’t get is how GDW worked out the relations between the different factions. I don’t claim to be an expert in Balkan politics, but based on where we’re at right now in the real world, the idea of the US being allied with the Serbs against the Croatians seems to be me to be mixed up. I’d have expected Croatia to be the pro NATO faction and Serbia the pro Pact faction.

[Jason Weiser]

Originally Posted by Southernap

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Similar, examining the Allied Forces experience going through the German forces in Europe and the German forces experiences in Russia showed that armor even then would be dangerous. Which lead to the Soviets to develop the assault guns with a 122m to 152mm gun installed and the Germans to do things like the Strumpanzer and Strumtiger. While the Allied forces never developed specific urban assault vehicles.

There are some other considerations?

1. The fact is, heavy equipment on the streets of NYC when it's in the grips of chaos isn't going to improve anyone's calm either. Light and calm might have been a thought of someone in charge, but here's a question? The 78th was loyal to MilGov, but the 42nd sided with CivGov. Was CivGov's deployment of the 42nd one of those "dirty tricks" alluded to in the v1 Referee's Guide? "Hey, let's force MilGov to worry about policing NYC, we've got the troops and the means to send them, let's show everyone we're just as capable as they are to still reinforce Europe!" (No comment about how dubious a decision this is). And, here's an open question? Who in the heck did the NY State Government side with? They never did establish that. (Nor did they for most of the other state governments, not that many of them are intact by 2000?)

2. Consider the other divisions sent, IIRC, were light divisions formed from Training divisions, which means a cadre of DSs and other training and support staff formed around a mass of half-trained basic trainees? This cannot portend well for these ersatz divisions. It's one thing to use them against marauders, or lawless elements in the US, but send them to Europe and sic them on the Soviets et. al without some means of "stiffening?" Probably not a good idea (Probably the only good idea in the entire enterprise). I can so see a staff officer at IV Corps saying as they embarked "Is this trip really necessary?" I just cannot see the military necessity for this at all. Even before the Mexicans invade, let alone after. But, there's plenty of real-life examples of military stupidity abounding.

3. As for the French, well it's not just the nukes. If I am France, I don't mind if the American governments fritter away their remaining strength in useless gestures to impress governments who could care less. It helps me in the long run. And if the Americans are forced to ask France for help getting out? Sure, of course we'll help...no charge at all. But the world will see a broken "superpower" being helped out of a jam of it's own creation by a resurgent France. And that is something France wants the neighborhood to see.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the 42nd had over 120 M113 type vehicles and 58 tanks at full strength - and they had been in the US the whole time basically on riot control duties - so they probably went over at close to full strength

They may only have 6 operational M60A4's by June 2000 but thats probably more a function of being in combat a year and a half, no replacements and most importantly probably zero spare parts given they are the only tanks that got sent to Yugoslavia - and no parts to draw on from the rest of the US forces

So you need a decent amount of ships to transport that many tanks - also it appears to be multiple convoys - if you look at the wording on the three divisions its pretty clear they didnt all come over together

76th Inf - left the US in late Oct 98
80th - left US possibly with the 76th

42nd - assuming the date for starting combat against the Croatians was not a typo they got there first - i.e. they entered combat on 10/7/98 while the other two units were still on the water

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had