T2013: Thoughts, Opinions, Hopes, & Fears

[kato13]

Raellus 05-05-2007, 01:43 PM T2013: it may end up being pretty cool- especially if it adds a lot of current and near-future military tech.


But, as far as the game world (settings and back-story) goes, I just don't think they'll be able to recreate the magic of the original versions. Kind of like what Lucas did with the second Star Wars trilogy (the bastard!). Perhaps I'm just getting old.


What do ya'll think?

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ReHerakhte 05-05-2007, 10:37 PM Hmmm, well, we also run the risk of falling into the nostalgia trap. Twilight: 2013 is not ever going to feel the same because it's not the first. 1st edition Twilight was something quite different because it was one of the first military RPGs (as far as I'm aware). I don't think you can ever truly recapture that first magic so to speak.


*WARNING* Heavily biased personal opinion on my part... but I think Twilight: 2013 is not going to result in much. 93 Games have been working on it for years now and although I haven't bothered to read all of the latest forum posts over on their site (there was plenty of speculation but little or no confirmation), they don't seem to have a real release schedule.


They have a good range of gaming gear on RPG Now, plenty of D20 OGL stuff... where the hell is the Twilight stuff? The draft rules were being sorted out in January 2007.They do a great range of clothing with Twilight: 2013 logos but I can't run a game with a f**king coffee cup, pack of postcards or a T-Shirt! Plenty of pretty logos for people to use on websites but no game books.


I feel that 2013 is like the fake buildings they use on a movie set, looks like a real building from the outside, very pretty and well decorated but don't look inside because it's hollow and empty...


Told ya'll I had a biased opinion...

Kevin

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thefusilier 05-05-2007, 11:13 PM For me personally I was pretty much uninterested from the start. I like Twilight 2000, and would love to see that restarted but know it never will. The lure for me was all about the Cold War. Because of that I don't care the slightest about future weapons or even the most IRL current ones. I like the idea of armies fighting without the ample amount of todays aides and gear. And I know some things with T2000 were not perfect, but all one has to do is browse a few pages here on this forum for a solution.


Not trying to be Capt. Bringdown on the subject, but I'm just saying I'll stick to the worn pages of T2000.

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kato13 05-05-2007, 11:30 PM I agree with thefusilier. There was a feeling during the cold war that "this could happen". Actually sometimes it felt like "this will happen".


Whatever scenario they come up with I don't think it will ever feel as real. Terrorists, bioweapons, natural disasters all of them combined don't scare me as much as the Red Bear did. I can see human displacement and economic disruption but not the near total devastation that a Nuclear (albeit light) Third World War would have brought.


Even the Merc 2000 timeline made me chuckle at their dire assumptions rather than making me fearful for the future.

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Snake Eyes 05-05-2007, 11:34 PM In the interest of full disclosure I'm in the Twilight:2013 beta playtest group, so I won't comment on anything that will get me in any NDA trouble.


I will say that I have come to realize that it is not reasonable for me to expect 93 Games to crank anything out that fully captures what was going through my mind when I started played Twilight:2000 back in 1984. Hell, I was 13. I was wired different back then and the world was a much different place. Holding the new designers to that standard really isn't fair. It's a lot like comparing "Commando" to "Black Hawk Down" in that I loved the former when it came out even if in retrospect it kind of sucked and pales in comparison to the latter. I'm pretty sure 2013 won't capture the Twilight nostalgia that I wish it would, nor do I imagine that it will satisfy my longing for the Armor XXI that never was. I do expect that it will stand on it's own for what it is, kind of like the new Battlestar Galactica has.


Anyway, I doubt any story or setting the new team comes up with is going to fully satisfy anybody around these parts. Twilight:2000 seems like the game everybody loves to hate. I've watched the armchair generals, the amateur geopoliticians and the TOE mafia dissect "Countdown to Armageddon" for years, deriding the original designers as shortsighted fools while they argue to the most inane level of minute detail over whether it could, would or should have happened like that.


I have always countered with the assertion that if the basic premise of the game is that me and my buddies are the sole survivors of a destroyed unit cut off deep behind the lines in a devastated world then that's pretty much all I need to know. I really don't need a Tom Clancy novella enumerating the day-by-day unit-level action that unfolded over the entire previous decade in order to understand (or accept) how I wound up there. Just give me a gun, a map and a reason. Suspension of disbelief is a wonderful thing.


To answer a question posed in the title of one of the threads over on their forum: "What's Armageddon going to look like this year?" Well, I expect it will look a whole lot different than the one we've grown accustomed to over the last twenty plus years. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing. Back story is useful, but not nearly as much as setting - which is almost irrelevant when compared to the importance of solid rule mechanics. That's where I'm really expecting the new game to shine. And whatever they botch, we'll make house rules for here.


That being said, I remain optimistic and I hope they surprise all of us.

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warvet 05-06-2007, 01:10 AM FIX IT/ HATE IT/ WORK They Wont We will It Won't


Sad too say End of story..back to T2000


Tim

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ChalkLine 05-06-2007, 02:34 AM Like many of us here (especially Targan and myself) I used a different rulesset and made my own timeline.


Not being from the USA, and with many of my online buddies actually being USA soldiers, I've taken to playing nonUSA troops. Unfortunately, the v2+ versions fell down there as it would be almost impossible to have tables, charts and systems for every type of combatant from the USA Army (the admitted focus) to the Italian Caribiniari.


One thing that V2+ really fell down, and the many supplements did as well, was that they had very little realisation of just how well the non-Anglo Europeans were prepared for the Twilight War. It was never even considered that nearly all Europeans leave school and spent a stint in the forces, giving them the equivalent of basic training and a specialisation at high school. That the infrastructure for war was already dispersed and that their forces would becomes 'nations in arms' very quickly.


The basic premise, now that I know a few military Poles, was also really, really flawed. Thinking that normal Polish people would accept our troops as liberators (always a poor preconception) after we nuked Warsawa among other places is ridiculous. Most people I've talked to said they would have served and fought tooth and nail against the west. Of course, this is a really small sample to base an assumption off, but it rings true to me.

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thefusilier 05-06-2007, 03:20 AM The basic premise, now that I know a few military Poles, was also really, really flawed. Thinking that normal Polish people would accept our troops as liberators (always a poor preconception) after we nuked Warsawa among other places is ridiculous. Most people I've talked to said they would have served and fought tooth and nail against the west. Of course, this is a really small sample to base an assumption off, but it rings true to me.


Valid point. But they might have been basing their thoughts off of the Hungarian and Czech uprisings against the Reds.

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Radar0313 05-06-2007, 03:39 AM First Off, Snake Eyes you lucky bastiach... I tried to get into the play test but as always I never could. Got one email from them when they did their cleaning house but it was the "We'll let you know." kind. Haha.


As for 2013; I agree with most of what has been said here. It probably won't capture the feel that T2K did. I remember reading the time line and thinking.. wow, this could happen. It was a plausible future and being one if not the only military style genre game of its time I was hooked.


As for the rules and character generation etc. To each their own. You can't satisfy everyone. And for me it'll be like Twilight 2000... if we like it we'll use it if not we'll bend it, twist it and adapt to what we like. I just want to see a plausible history leading up to the end war. Everything else is either going to be gravy or something to tweak.


I look forward to t coming out and will buy a copy regardless of what system they use; coin toss, paper rock scissors, D20, percentile, short straw. Mainly because I collect games at this point and think it would be great to have the next installment sitting on the shelf right next to version 2.2, 2 and the 1st edition books. I doubt I will hate it but whether I love it or just tolerate it will all depend on how long that new book smell wafts around in my mind.

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Cerberus 05-06-2007, 06:20 AM I'm hopeful. I liked the first game and would be willing to give anyone who had the guts to try to pick up its flag the benefit of the doubt.


Sort of like what Snake Eyes is saying, what I'd like to see is just enough information to get started, and then after that it's all on us.

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General Pain 05-06-2007, 12:11 PM Headquarters' Campaign have gone beyond 2013, we have just entered 2017 and the USA is in a great Civil War (explained indetail at our site) Latest intel show that the former US troops in southkorea and areas around are gathering a large fleet to help MILGOV (our enemy) take back the westcoast which we controll for the moment...That is why I made a lot of new ships..We have offcourse fixed a lot of the ships from suishin bay ,CA...So there will be a huge battle in the pacific.


So in regards to the 2013 release that may or may not come..I am looking forward to it but I doubt it would be any better than the deranged minds of my fellow forum-posters could cook up...


Time will tell I guess


General Pain

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Shaeffer 05-06-2007, 02:06 PM I myself am looking forward to seeing what they come up with. It may or may not replace the version my group currently uses, but it WILL be nice to see how they update things. I agree with everyone who says it may not end up tasting the same, though.


I'm a little jealous of Snake Eyes myself I attempted to get my whole group into the playtest, but when they asked for a copy of my DD214, I kinda lost interest... I could understand wanting to verify the things I was claiming in regards to being prior service (my whole gaming group is), but my military records are private, sorry.


<shrugs> Maybe I just misunderstood the email reply...


Anyhow, one thing I do have a hangup about regarding the upcoming system, is along the lines of what RH said. I see promotional materials for 2013, in the form of cups, shirts, memo pads, etc., but nothing in the form of teaser material, like an example of character creation, or a few selected/updated weapons systems, and so on. Nothing about how the system will look like. That's the sort of thing that seems to draw players and generate excitement (works on me at least). Heck, to become priviledged and get sneal peaks at the developer's blog, I'd have to set up a MySpace account, since it's no longer available on the 93 website (or if it is, I can't find it).


I know it's still in playtest, but I'm sure no one would really get upset if they showed Melee Combat v.1.0023 right now to satisfy the fans' curiousity, then turned around and used a tweaked Melee Combat v.1.0024 rules set in the finished product.


So, I'm excited enough to check out the next version of Twilight, but it's not because of anything the gaming company is doing (other than making a new version in the first place).

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Raellus 05-06-2007, 03:07 PM Wow. There's a lot to think about here. Thanks for all of the contributions so far.


I've thinking about what makes T2K so special for me and it boils down to one thing: setting. If the new game keeps the premise of a near total breakdown of civilization, and a small party of "adventurers" cut off deep behind enemy lines in a war-torn world, then it'll be worth a look. If not, then, IMHO, it shouldn't be called Twilight.


I remember reading on the T2013 developers blog about at little play test they did set in Tajikistan (or one of the other lesser known "...stans") where a small player party was infiltrated on a mission by C130 and I thought "this aint Twilight, this sounds like Merc 2000...". That report really turned me off. Perhaps it's still coloring my thinking a bit. After all, it was only a test (right?)...


Snake's Battlestar analogy is a good way to think about it, though. The new series doesn't quite capture the "magic" (if you could call it that) of the original series- at least for those who grew up watching it (it's nearly unwatchable now)- yet the writing, story-line, and production values set it apart from a lot on the tube nowadays. IF the new version of Twilight can do that same thing, it'll be worth a look.


But remember, for every good remake, there's an equally large pile of steaming crap...

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thefusilier 05-06-2007, 10:53 PM I remember reading on the T2013 developers blog about at little play test they did set in Tajikistan (or one of the other lesser known "...stans") where a small player party was infiltrated on a mission by C130 and I thought "this aint Twilight, this sounds like Merc 2000...". That report really turned me off. Perhaps it's still coloring my thinking a bit. After all, it was only a test (right?)...


Sounds...... awful. Another Merc2000/Special Forces type game?

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ReHerakhte 05-07-2007, 04:30 AM Twilight: 2013 is still going to be post-apocalyptic by the descriptions given over at 93 Games Studio and if it is post-apoc, then I will buy it.


However, as an aside to the setting of Twilight itself, the game Dark Conspiracy, a modern horror/techno-thriller RPG using the same rules as Twilight 2.0 is also undergoing a revamp to a third edition. A New Zealand based group, The Gamers Conglomerate, is updating/remaking the rules with the idea that there should be the ability to use old modules etc. without much modification.

It will be worth keeping an eye on their progress to see what they do with the rules.

Their website hasn't been updated for a while due to some family committments by the webauthor but their forums are still active. http://darkconspiracytherpg.info/forums/


Cheers,

Kevin

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Radar0313 05-07-2007, 02:43 PM Nice, I liked Dark Conspiracy, even use some of the house rules from the magazine for DC, Demon Ground I think it is. I'd be interested in seeing the two new system compared to their counterparts.

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Snake Eyes 05-07-2007, 07:16 PM Sounds...... awful. Another Merc2000/Special Forces type game?


In all fairness, the scenario referenced above was a convention one-shot used to introduce and shake out the alpha version of the rule mechanics. It's not like you can rebuild America from the ashes in a single session, even with a lot of gritty self-determination.

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thefusilier 05-08-2007, 04:14 AM In all fairness, the scenario referenced above was a convention one-shot used to introduce and shake out the alpha version of the rule mechanics. It's not like you can rebuild America from the ashes in a single session, even with a lot of gritty self-determination.


Yes you are right. I'm just hesitant on a remake and generally biased against anything "future storyline" oriented.

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Snake Eyes 05-09-2007, 10:20 PM Their blog leads me to believe there is some news in the pipeline.

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warvet 05-09-2007, 10:46 PM Schaeffer said "when they asked for a copy of my DD214, I kinda lost interest... I could understand wanting to verify the things I was claiming in regards to being prior service (my whole gaming group is), but my military records are private, sorry."



Schaeffer actually thats not true your Mil 214 is public record. But I understand your reluctance just to playtest a BS game.


Tim

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Shaeffer 05-10-2007, 06:41 AM I appreciate that, Warvet


I also kinda wondered how I was going to be able to prove my gaming group had been together in its current form for the past 14 years... I have no idea if pizza/chips/Mountain Dew receipts would have been sufficient proof.

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Shaeffer 05-10-2007, 06:43 AM Their blog leads me to believe there is some news in the pipeline.


Really? What have you found out?

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Raellus 05-10-2007, 07:15 PM Do tell!


I, for one, took it for a very bad sign when their free developer's blog moved over to myspace.


Here's a thought. T2K came out in around '87 right? The game was set 13 years in the future.


It's now 2007. The game (T:2013) was supposed to be released this year. So, why is it set only 6 years in the future? In 6 years, it'll be out of date and players will have to deal with the alternate timeline/alternative universe issue that T2K'ers have been playing around with for years.


Why didn't they follow the lead of the first version and set it 13 years in the future. Twilight 2020 has a nice ring to it. It's a nice, round number.


I just find the decision to start the timeline in 2013 a bit weird. For god's sake, there's a REAL shooting war going right now. Using the current timeline to set up a post-apocalyptic RPG seems a little tasteless at the moment.


I'm done.

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Radar0313 05-10-2007, 08:08 PM Well... Twilight 2020.. Cyberpunk 2020... I can see a reluctance in that aspect but then why not 2023.. or something... but I get your point.


As for basing it off a current timeline... I personally don't care one way or another. When the original game came out it was based on existing time lines, though there wasn't an active war going on.


For me it's about whether the timeline is 'believable' that makes it a Twilight game. That was alure when I first got the game. Even though that alure can never be recapture exactly like it was, it's what I expect in a Twilight title.


As for it being only six years in the future, I am ok with that also. Because I have noticed a trend toward everything becoming quicker... TV shows come and die in two or three shows these days, computers become outdated in years, new game platforms don't take decades to replace the previous one... its a quicker fast paced world where anything can happen in the blink of an eye.


What it boils down to me is how well they recreate the chaotic world in the aftermath of a world at war as to whether I consider Twilight 2013 the next step in the T2K saga.


I still reel about the myspace thing though... come on; under the Music section they talk about Writers, Movies has Artist information, Television covers Advisors and the Zodia Sign... that seriously dimenished the professional feel to 93 studios that I used to feel. I don't pay any attention to the myspace and only check the forums occassionally for the little scraps of information they feed us.

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Shaeffer 05-11-2007, 06:29 AM Agreed on the whole MySpace move. It basically made the blog unavailable to me (because I don't wish to set up my own MySpace page and shouldn't have to IMHO) which bit, because having access to that trickle of information kept me looking forward to the new game.


As far as the setting, I'm sure it will be a fun read, but I'm most interested in what they do with the rules themselves. I'm especially interested in seeing how careers/terms/character creation is revamped, since I find that an enjoyable aspect of the Twilight systems of the past.


I'm glad this isn't going to be a d20 (ie D&D 3E) revamp of the old game. So far, in my experience, I've never cared for "modern" games based on the mechanics (although Spycraft came close). I look forward to seeing what they have planned for us.


Too bad about that developer's blog....

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Snake Eyes 05-13-2007, 12:50 AM Those of you with some kind of MySpace aversion can still follow the lead designer over on LiveJournal if you want.


http://tegyrius.livejournal.com/

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Snake Eyes 05-13-2007, 11:59 AM The 93 Games blog at LiveJournal is updated too.


http://93gamesstudio.livejournal.com/7286.html


They also say they're going to start dribbling out some info every Sunday.

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smokewolf 05-13-2007, 05:06 PM Talk about tough crowds. Lets see if I can shed some light on a few points get some constructive criticism going.


1) Just for accuracy sake, we acquired the license in 2006. After acquisition, we began preparations, hiring writers, getting some advisers and even ensuring financing. Technically actual production has been going on for a little less than a year. By normal standards, our shooting for a 2007 release is kinda pushing it, but I have confidence in my team to meet that.


As for not stating any dates, I have talked to Clayton about that and my feeling is I would rather put off release if it means we have a better quality product. I want quality not quantity. So I am willing to put things off until that is met. Still though, it will be released this year. My wife wouldn't let me continue to pay and not have anything to show for it.


2) About advisors and DD-214s. Unfortunately once news got out that we were producing a new version, I have been swamped with wannabes. My main military contact is an active duty ranger officer who worked his way up through the enlisted ranks. He does a great job of weeding out fakes just from conversations but sometimes we need a little more. If I had a nickel for every 20 year combat veteran who was a Ranger, D-boy, Airborne trained, and who has seen more combat than John Wayne, I'd be rich. Seriously, I wish I could post some of the stories from these guys. One of them is public in one of our forum threads, but thats about as far as I will go with that.


I can understand the feeling about asking about the DD214, but I have said that all personal info can be blacked out, we just need information we can verify. If I didn't in anyones case, that was an oversight, sorry.


3) Updates. Oddly, I was over here today because I have posted some updates, including a glimpse at some of the rules. I have also released a major promotional piece at RPGNOW (but I haven't said anything publicly about it, until now). We have been in major writing mode so I did neglect the blogs but that is over now so you will start seeing more and more, every week to be exact.


And even though I moved to MySpace, the livejournal blog is still active and is updated when MySpace is as well. Keep in mind, MySpace offers more tools and allows me to offer more things at one site than Livejournal.


http://www.myspace.com/93gamesstudio

http://93gamesstudio.livejournal.com


4) About the game and its relation to the earlier editions. Let me see if I can explain why I started this whole process to begin with. I am not trying to replace T2K at all. Both v1 and v2 are awesome games, evident to their still being played to this day. My whole thinking is to shift the focus of the game from the wars themself to the people in them. The focus of this edition will be on people, humanity, and life. This is not to say that the rules aren't going to be as good as earlier editions, they will be, hopefully better.


For a birds eye view check out: http://93gamesstudio.livejournal.com/6531.html


This edition is not going to replace T2K, but it should be viewed as an expansion of the gameplay itself. A different way to play the game. You should be able to use the original timeline and the new rules if you really want to even.


Also, keep in mind that while the earlier version are very popular with those of use who lived through the cold war the larger part of the RPG market grew up after it was over.


5) Why only 6 years? Two reasons. 1) the last few conflicts have shown us that the build up and execution of war has rapidly increased over previous time periods. Build up to the Twilight war is going to take awhile, but once nukes start to fly, you'll see a more rapid decline than from earlier editions. Think about how much just the internet effects your daily life. Once the EMPs hit, bye bye internet. 2) If you look back at v1 even, while it was set 13 years into the future, technically the story was outdated in just a few years thanks to the collapse of the Soviet Union. v2 even came out with a new cause and timeline for the war (IIRC). Merc 2000 was even an attempt to get away from a story dependent on the real world social-political makeup.


If the timeline we have setup turns out to be true then I doubt we will all be playing this game. Personally I hope that the timeline doesn't happen.




I am not trying to convert everyone to become followers of the new T2K13, but I do hope to show some of our thinking. I am also a very open guy, and would love to hear constructive criticism about what we can do to make this something you'd at least try. But keep in mind I wrote this in 10 minutes and it may not be the best written explanation, but if it is give me a chance to elaborate.

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smokewolf 05-13-2007, 08:19 PM Officially I have now released the first background fiction piece:


SHALL NOT PERISH

----- http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=6747&



This is the first in a series of installments. Two more will follow before the end of this month, with the rest continueing until release of the core rules.

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Shaeffer 05-14-2007, 06:26 AM Thanks very much for your comments They've eased some of the concerns I might have been having, and are much appreciated.


Regarding the DD214's, I can't blame you one bit for wanting to use them to weed out the posers and PX Rangers. Your version of Twilight will be that much better for it.


Keep plugging away! I can't wait to pick up T2013!

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Raellus 05-14-2007, 01:25 PM Thanks for weighing in, Smokewolf.


I am looking forward to the release of the T2K13. I hope that I did not give the impression that it is otherwise. It's just that, like any good fanboy, it's hard to see someone else milking my sacred cow. But, I will sample that milk and, perhaps, buy the whole jug.


Wow. That was really weird.


I hope you take my meaning. If we weren't really interested in what ya'll are coming up with, we wouldn't be talking about it. I think a lot of us 'round these parts are really eager to see what direction you've taken things.


Keep us posted.

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smokewolf 05-14-2007, 01:45 PM NP here. I am just trying to let everyone know we are hoping that we don't screw this up either.


One thing I keep reminding myself and the writers, is we are not trying to create just a WWIII rpg. That game already exists, Twilight: 2000 and it rocks. We are trying to take it to the next level. I am ok with people prefering the originals over this new version. They will be too different styles of game play.


Most games have two components, 1) setting and 2) Rules. For us we are working with a 3rd element: story.


Let's face it, the setting can be changed and will be changed by the players during play. I feel alot of people will keep the original timeline and such and play with the new rules. Thats ok.


We do think the rules we are generating will make for a very realistic "feeling" game (stress on feeling). But the whole reason we are coming up with new rules, instead of cleaning up the originals, is becuase of the focus on the people in this version. In order to change the focus of the game, we had to come up with new rules to reinforce this. The shift in rules is to create more believable, well rounded characters and to create more believable, well rounded stories about those characters.


This is the new focus we are attempting. Lets face it, if you want merely a game about war and combat, there already is an awesome game out there for that - Twilight: 2000. Now we want to change the focus from the war and combat to the people in it. We are attempting to make the Twilight war more personable. More about the people in it rather than Countries, Armies and events.


But have no fear...We are also creating staged rules, meaning that most of the rules are modular. Those wishing to play rule-lite and do so and those wishing to play with indepth semi-wargame rules can do so also. The rules are staged in such a way to allow you to add or remove as to fit your game play. So while the focus is on people, you can create the same combat as earlier editions too.

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Spielmeister 05-14-2007, 07:45 PM Good to hear Smokewolf. My buddies and I have been following the developments in Twilight 2013. We're looking forward to buying it when it comes out....

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Raellus 05-14-2007, 08:18 PM I've always found the idea of trying to rebuild civilization, albeit on a very small scale- like say, a Polish village at a time- very intriguing. So, I'm even more eager to see the new direction v3 is going.

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Radar0313 05-14-2007, 08:35 PM So do I. And it sounds less like more of the same. Which to me is a good thing. I'd always wanted to do a campaign set in the US shortly after the nukes. Have all the PCs be civilian careers and the war term replaced by a year of Survival Skills.


Still very eager for this games arrival. If only to put it on the shelf next to the other three versions.

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smokewolf 05-19-2007, 10:54 AM Today I released the first in a series of podcasts for Twilight: 2013. There is one more planned for this month and then the rest will follow after that. Check it out at either blog site (you can't miss it):


http://www.myspace.com/93gamesstudio or http://93gamesstudio.livejournal.com


I have also posted a rules snippet as well today since tomorrow I will be on a plane all day.

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kcdusk 05-19-2007, 07:39 PM More than anything i am looking forward to another ruleset*.


* good evade/pursuit rules continue to elude me


A different background/setting would be interesting reading. But for reasons already given its hard to do better than the v1.0 ones due to the real life cold war factor that was in place when we all got into the game.


If the new game has some focus on rebuilding a village or rising up through the ranks of power of a small town/city that might be interesting too.

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Shaeffer 05-21-2007, 07:23 AM Were the podcasts a Bush impression and something in morse code, or did I miss them? I wanted to make sure I went to the right place, as I was assuming they would be about the upcoming game.

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smokewolf 05-21-2007, 07:54 AM Yes, but it wasn't a Bush impression it was from the president at the time. Both are suppose to be IC podcasts from within the game.

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Shaeffer 05-21-2007, 10:36 AM Oh, cool. Glad I didn't miss anything. Thanks!

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Shaeffer 05-23-2007, 12:32 PM Something I'd like to see from the upcoming edition is an example of character creation; how 93 Games plans to handle it.


One of the more enjoyable aspects of V2.2 for my group is actually making the characters; using the flow of terms to flesh out and help shape the backstories, outlooks, attitudes, etc., of who they'll be playing the part of in our game. With a little tweaking, we've been able to create well-rounded characters not just from a roleplaying POV but from the rules themselves.


That's one thing from earlier versions that I hope the new edition will stick with, albeit in a more updated, thorough, and common-sense way (no more of the Enlisted Armor MOS lists Stealth as a subsequent term skill, while the Enlisted Infantry MOS does not, as an example).

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smokewolf 05-23-2007, 12:39 PM able to create well-rounded characters not just from a roleplaying POV but from the rules themselves.



This is the cornerstone of this edition. It is all about the characters.

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smokewolf 05-23-2007, 12:43 PM This week I'll post something about Character Gen just for you.

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Shaeffer 05-23-2007, 01:14 PM Looking forward to it very much. Thanks!

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Snake Eyes 05-27-2007, 11:35 PM Newest blog entry is Step Zero in 2013's character generation: Character Concept.


http://93gamesstudio.livejournal.com/8324.html

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Shaeffer 05-28-2007, 08:15 AM While it's nothing unique or new, it is VERY nice to finally see regularly posted updates about the upcoming game.

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davidns84 05-29-2007, 11:50 PM We are bad people. We are the worst mass murderers in future history. By our keystrokes, we will enact the death of between 75% and 90% of the total human population of the planet. The blood of over five billion of our fellow men is on our hands. Cities will burn at our whim. The great works on which we so blindly depend for our daily comforts will be shattered by our own words.


Fun, isn't it?


The trick here is to titrate the destruction so it isn't total. No one wants to play "Rat and Roach War" or wield a length of +2 rusty rebar with a block of concrete on the end. The popularity of Twilight: 2000 was, in large part, due to the fact that the familiar world was blown up just enough to be rugged and depopulated, but yet was still enough intact that it wasn't impossible for the survivors to attain a level of existence with frontier comforts.


[Redacted to take my foot out of my mouth] Any actual nuclear exchange would not use up the arsenals of the respective countries in the conflict. Simple aversion to causing that much havoc and not wanting to be destroyed yourself tend to create an unwritten rule that nuclear exchange should entail reciprocation, i.e. an enemy's use of tactical nukes result in me using them as well, but not strategic warheads. In this vein, I think any nuclear would be fairly tightly focused on high priority targets.


Has anyone read the 1632 series by Eric Flint (and the related anthologies and magazine)? For those who haven't, it is about Grantville, a small West Virginia coal town which, though a space-time anomaly, is transported to northern Germany right in the middle of the Thirty Years War (hence the title).


It isn't a post-apocalyptic story, but if the ICBMs were to start flying tomorrow, the average town of middle America would find itself in a similar situation. In the arc of the story, the populace of Grantville, both out of good 'ol American ideals and a need to survive, kickoffs the American Revolution a century and a half early and begin building an industrialized state with the combined resources of the town and the help of "down-time" Germans-turned-Americans who end joining their New United States. The series itself was painstakingly researched and based on an actual town where Flint interviewed real people he based his characters on and took a detailed inventory of the town's resources and infrastructure, all in an effort to keep the whole scenario realistic.


My whole point in bringing this up is that while survival will be harsh, a motivated community can recover relatively quickly, especially if they were outside any areas significantly hit.

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Shaeffer 05-30-2007, 12:01 PM 1632 is one my personal favorites, and a setting ripe for use in an RPG, given the right system. I've seen one made for it, but wasn't impressed. I wouldn't be suprised if Twilight 2013 could handle it, however.

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davidns84 05-30-2007, 12:45 PM You're right. It was a bit of background with the generic "Action System" tacked on. Very spare. However, it does provide stats and skill lists for various major characters, so it's useful in you want to convert all that.


If you want to run 1632, I suggest getting the Grantville Gazette (http://www.grantvillegazette.com), which not only has some important side fiction (like a series on the formation of the new Marine Corps), but a plethora of non-fictional articles on various survival and technology related issues, written for those who want to submit fictional articles to the Gazette. But they are also a wealth of information for someone running a T2K game as well.

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Tegyrius 05-30-2007, 07:09 PM Hey, all. I'm checking in a little late, but still did manage to make it over here. Keith poked me a few weeks back but I've been busy with, well... you can guess. Just wanted to respond to a few of the comments that particularly caught my eye.


I feel that 2013 is like the fake buildings they use on a movie set, looks like a real building from the outside, very pretty and well decorated but don't look inside because it's hollow and empty...

The approximately 150,000 words of rules manuscript on my hard drive would like to respectfully dispute your statement. *grin* The fact of the matter is that we started talking about this project much earlier than most companies discuss upcoming releases. We're sufficiently enthusiastic about the project that we wanted to share the good news. However, due to a desire to protect the intellectual property, we can't give anyone who isn't under NDA too many specifics, just vague generalities. I can see how this could be misinterpreted.


I've thinking about what makes T2K so special for me and it boils down to one thing: setting. If the new game keeps the premise of a near total breakdown of civilization, and a small party of "adventurers" cut off deep behind enemy lines in a war-torn world, then it'll be worth a look. If not, then, IMHO, it shouldn't be called Twilight.

That's certainly going to be one possible way to run it, and there will be every bit as much support for that style of play as the original editions had. However, we're aiming for a larger number of "out of the box" opportunities than the classic trickle of NATO survivors out of Eastern Europe. Want to run a OPFOR game in Pakistan? Go for it. Post-apocalyptic desperate housewives manning the parapets of the gated community? Got ya covered. But we aren't taking away any of the post-apoc military opportunities of 1e and 2e.


I remember reading on the T2013 developers blog about at little play test they did set in Tajikistan (or one of the other lesser known "...stans") where a small player party was infiltrated on a mission by C130 and I thought "this aint Twilight, this sounds like Merc 2000...". That report really turned me off. Perhaps it's still coloring my thinking a bit. After all, it was only a test (right?)...

Ah... not quite.


The PCs were a recon team of 2nd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division (including a Kurdish scout and an embedded photojournalist/medic) operating out of Camp Houston, a US/allied cantonment in northeastern Kurdistan. The mission was a time-limited run through hostile territory to make a rendezvous. The brigade had recently re-established radio contact with the provisional CENTCOM headquarters in Izmir. A Navy vessel had recently limped into port with, among other things, the last shipment of mail from stateside (possibly the last mail ever), which included a fair amount for 2nd Brigade's personnel and the other troops who'd moved into Kurdistan with them.


In order to maintain morale (and troop loyalty), CENTCOM had authorized the use of one of the last remaining C-130s in the theatre to perform a mail run. Due to low fuel reserves, the aircraft was not able to make the brigade's area of control. The only way to make the drop was to do a touch-and-go at an abandoned airstrip in uncontrolled former Turkish territory. The brigade's own fuel reserves were similarly low, so rather than move to the RV in force, the decision was made to send a small, fast team from the cantonment nearest the chosen LZ. This was the justification for the PCs being sent off by their lonesome. What only the 1LT in command of the detachment knew was that in addition to the mail, the Herc was also carrying a disbursement of pharmaceuticals from CENTCOM stores.


The plot was painfully linear and did not get into a lot of the resource shortages that should be present in 2000/2013, but it was a four-hour convention slot, and I wanted to dedicate at least one hour to teaching the basic system and getting player feedback on it. Basically, the team hit the road, made contact with a nominally friendly Kurdish village, broke a muji ambush (stress-testing the combat system), and made the LZ with a couple of hours to spare. Unfortunately, neither group of players pushed out scouts to check the immediate area, so both sessions saw the C-130 shot down while on final approach. The PCs extracted the drugs and surviving aircrew while under fire and made a fighting withdrawal from the area. One group saved at least some of the mail; the other had already taken casualties and was willing to settle for Pyrrhic completion of objectives.


Out for now,


- C.

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Grimace 05-30-2007, 09:21 PM I think my biggest fear is that this new game is going to polarize Twilight gamers. You're going to have some that will go hook, line and sinker to the new system and play only that system. They will accept the new write up of history or whatever reason is given for the current situation, and they will enjoy it.


Then you'll have the other group that won't particularly care for something in the new game, either the system (that seems to want to please everyone, which makes me wary) or the premise or the character generation, and they won't continue to use it. Right now, we've got basically two versions (yes, yes, I know there was a 2.2 version, but that's just a refinement of V2) of Twilight and both V1 fans and V2 fans basically get along because it was ALL Twilight 2000. Everyone was in the same boat...Poland, behind enemy lines. We can all say we know the story, we know the situation, and we can all talk about our characters in relation to the same game. That won't apply when the new game comes out.


The new game may be great for some, but for others it will never be Twilight, even though we've been told we can run our games like it's the old Twilight we know and love. We won't have a situational similarity to reference, we won't be stranded in war torn Poland, and we won't have the same system to make references back and forth. Essentially, we'll have a batch of people who will be talking about a game that others will have little to no relation to or interest in. We'll have two camps; the new Twilighters and the old Twilighters.


While I would love to just assume that we'd all get along and not have any problems with each other, but I've seen too many game forums that have new systems released devolve into old vs. new in debate. I'm worried that's what the new game will do by being so new and bold in its development and straying so much from the Twilight idea. I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen it before.

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smokewolf 05-30-2007, 10:28 PM While I would love to just assume that we'd all get along and not have any problems with each other, but I've seen too many game forums that have new systems released devolve into old vs. new in debate. I'm worried that's what the new game will do by being so new and bold in its development and straying so much from the Twilight idea. I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen it before.



Not sure how to respond to this, but...


When I started throwing around the idea of developing a new Twilight, I had to ask myself - Why?


Was there something wrong with any of the three versions of the original system? No, all are completely playable, the rules aren't broken, the games are fun, still.


Was the story a problem? I mean it is 2006 and times ain't what they use to be. No, the game after all is a work of fiction. I had no problem suspending my beliefs, especially since I lived through parts of the Cold War and still remember nuke drills in elementary school.


So the rules were fine and the story was ok. So why make a new version?


My thought revolved around the role-playing itself. After all this is a role-playing game. Whenever I had seen/heard/played the game, it was always about the missions, the combat. Oh, sure everyone had memorable characters, don't get me wrong. But the excitement came from the mission.


When I decided to attempt to get this license, the new Battlestar Galactica had just became a series on Sci-Fi. To me it shifted the whole focus of that series from the space/technology aspect to the people itself. Heck, the last season had what 2-3 episodes out of 20+ that involved any "space" combat. It was about the people and their stories.


Personally, I would much rather develop a character and story than stats. This new BSG helped show me that other things can be given new life. So my purpose has been to ADD a new level of play, a new method of playing, a new style of game to an already prestigious product line. Here we are focusing on the people, not the war. What does it mean to live in the post WWIII period? What kind of characters will you meet? What stories can be told?


Now along the way, I have decided to spice up things with a new background based around modern events. Let's face it, the cold war story is already out there. I doubt any of us could really improve on what GDW has given us. This background will help energize those who haven't played in years and help those who have no memory of the cold war connect to this new version. Those who still choose to play the original story lines are free to do so. The new rules system will only help them to now focus on the people.


So this idea of taking Twilight and adding a new level of play is what is driving me. It is not about forcing people to choose sides, but about giving another option, another style of play, more stories to create, more characters to develop. I hope that people don't see this as trying to replace the great games that Twilight are. I hope that people only see it as an additional layer with which to play.

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Radar0313 05-31-2007, 12:33 AM I personnally just think it's the nature of the beast. You'll never satisfy all of the existing Twilight 2000 gamers out there. Just look at the vast number of gentlemen here that use variations of the core game. You have people that use the core rules as is all the way up to replacing the rules with different rules sets from average to complex. Then there is the differences in settings; some in the stock Poland, others in Africa, the US, Korea and OPFOR games.


The new installment of Twilight will be no different. Twilight 2013 will have players that like this part and that part, for one reason or another. If a rift appears between old and new Twilight folks I think it will be because of how close 2013 is to the Twilight feel that each player views it as. The folks that feel that the game gives the Twilight feel will get along just fine. Look at all the differences in Twilight 2000 that the guys hanging around here have now and yet we get along, most days.


You can't satisfy all of the people and you can't kill them all, cause who will grow the food?

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thefusilier 05-31-2007, 02:14 AM As Poland was the central focus of the original, where does the new version place us in?

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smokewolf 05-31-2007, 04:59 AM You can't satisfy all of the people and you can't kill them all, cause who will grow the food?



Soylent Green of course.



As Poland was the central focus of the original, where does the new version place us in?



We are not building a default location per sea. There will be areas in which our fiction revolves, but as for where the players will start --- anywhere you want. We are building a total global picture of the Twilight war. Like Clayton said "Want to run a OPFOR game in Pakistan? Go for it. Post-apocalyptic desperate housewives manning the parapets of the gated community? Got ya covered."

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thefusilier 05-31-2007, 07:53 AM We are not building a default location per sea. There will be areas in which our fiction revolves, but as for where the players will start --- anywhere you want. We are building a total global picture of the Twilight war. Like Clayton said "Want to run a OPFOR game in Pakistan? Go for it. Post-apocalyptic desperate housewives manning the parapets of the gated community? Got ya covered."


Oh ok. What are those areas though, the main flashpoints?

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smokewolf 05-31-2007, 08:10 AM The whole world.


We are writing up sections for almost every area on the globe. This time the Twilight War isn't limited in scope or area. Heck just think about today. There is a movement that is trying to get people to recognize that the world is actually in World War 3 right now. If you count up the number of countries involved in the "Global War of Terror", the number involved in Civil Wars/Conflicts, the number involved in border disputes, and the genocide, you damn near come up with 100% of the countries out there.


Look at where the US is today, Korea (hot spot), Iraq, Germany, Panama, Afghanistan, Japan, Bosnia, Somalia, etc. We cover the globe in playable locations alone. But this game is not going to be US-centric. Guys from Poland are going to be able to pick up this game and play right at home, as are Finnish and Australian guys. We really are not focusing on 1, 2 or even a hand full of places.


As for the fiction though, I won't tell you. :P


I will say that there is a clue in the morse code podcast, if you can figure it out.

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Raellus 05-31-2007, 02:26 PM Ah... not quite.

The PCs were a recon team of 2nd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division (including a Kurdish scout and an embedded photojournalist/medic) operating out of Camp Houston, a US/allied cantonment in northeastern Kurdistan. The mission was a time-limited run through hostile territory to make a rendezvous. The brigade had recently re-established radio contact with the provisional CENTCOM headquarters in Izmir. A Navy vessel had recently limped into port with, among other things, the last shipment of mail from stateside (possibly the last mail ever), which included a fair amount for 2nd Brigade's personnel and the other troops who'd moved into Kurdistan with them.


In order to maintain morale (and troop loyalty), CENTCOM had authorized the use of one of the last remaining C-130s in the theatre to perform a mail run. Due to low fuel reserves, the aircraft was not able to make the brigade's area of control. The only way to make the drop was to do a touch-and-go at an abandoned airstrip in uncontrolled former Turkish territory. The brigade's own fuel reserves were similarly low, so rather than move to the RV in force, the decision was made to send a small, fast team from the cantonment nearest the chosen LZ. This was the justification for the PCs being sent off by their lonesome. What only the 1LT in command of the detachment knew was that in addition to the mail, the Herc was also carrying a disbursement of pharmaceuticals from CENTCOM stores.

- C.


I take it all back. If I'd only known then, what I know now... *smile*

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Raellus 05-31-2007, 02:50 PM I totally get your motivations, Smoke. I've always been more interested in the characters and the world than I have been in the "mission" or even combat. It's the atmosphere of Twilight that really grips me.


You probably can't say (and that's OK), but I'm really curious about what factor is responsible for the massive global casualties leading up to the T2013 world. Weaponized Smallpox? Conventional warfare? Nuclear weapons? A Solanum induced zombie holocaust? Another season of "According to Jim"? All of the above? You've got to keep the rads in there somewhere!


Also, can the modern "War on Terror" really ever compete with the Cold War for that ominous feeling of pervading, slow-simmering dread? My 8th graders never mention terrorism as a concern. I know that images of terrorism fill the airwaves (CNN, FOX News, 24, BSG, The Cell, etc.) but are Americans today- the kids who'll pick up a copy of T2013- really worried about it? Sure, the "Security Mom" worries- she can barely sleep at night thinking about all of those illegal immigrants with their backpack nukes- but the kids? I just don't think so. Now. that's not to say the new game won't be great, I'm just wondering if the new game will capture the moment, so to speak, that the original v1.0 did.


I mean, look at the competetion: Red Dawn, Rocky IV, Rambo II & III, Firefox, Top Gun, Spies Like Us, Jumping Jack Flash, Any James Bond movie made before 1990, 99 Luftballoons, If the Russians Love their Children Too (Sting)... I could go on.


I think it was the unkown that was really scary as a kid. NATO and the Warsaw Pact never actually fought. It was the possibility that was so frightening. We can turn on the national news every night and see the results of acts of terrorism in Iraq and elsewhere. It's real, it's tanglible. And, in a way, it's not a scary.


That said, the current generation knows as much about the Cold War my generation knew about WWI when we were kids so, I can see why ya'll would want to revamp the backstory and make it a little more current.


I guess I'm just an old fart who can't stop living in the past. Hey, will there be a discount for guys like us? *wink*

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Shaeffer 06-01-2007, 05:07 AM Like any revision of an old favorite (be it TV, Movies, Books, or Games), Twilight 2013 is bound to cause polarization. Change always does. Some people roll with it, others can't or won't.


I'd say the flashpoint for whatever Twilight-causing event will be customizable and depend on what the individual GM wants to happen -- or at least there will be variations on the main theme available for our use in the MRB. Like Smokewolf says, it's going to be a toolkit.

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