Korea: Summer 2000.

[kato13]

(moved from archive -kato13)

Dogger 02-03-2003, 03:05 PM I'm wondering if anyone has any detailed information on what the T2K situation in Korea was at about the time of the "Going Home" module?


All my T2K material is Ver.1 and my games were/are set in the V.1 world.


The v.1 US Army Vehicle Guide lists the following for Korea in the summer of 2000:


8th US Army

II US Amphib Corps.

4th Marine Division: (23rd Regiment only) 400 men, 7 M60A4 tanks. *(USAVG says this Reg was returned to the US.)

5th Marine Division: 2000 men, 9 M60A4 tanks.

6th Marine Division: (16 Regiment only) 600 men, 4 M60A4 tanks.


II US Corps

7th Infantry Division: (Light) (1st Brigade only) 500 men, 0 tanks

26th Infantry Division: (Light) 5000 men, 3 LAV-75's

45th Infantry Division: 2000 men, 0 tanks.


VI US Corps

2nd Infantry Division: 2000 men, 4 M1 tanks.

25th Infantry Division: (Light) 600 men, 0 tanks.

41st Infantry Division: 2000 men, 0 tanks.

163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment: 600 men, 4 LAV-75's.


So what your looking at, (less 23/4th MarDiv) is a total US troop strength of 15,300 men, with 20 M60A tanks, 4 M1 Abrams, and 7 LAV-75's. Still a formidable force in the world of T2K but a force scattered and in poor shape I would bet.


The USAVG describes the 8th Army as taking quite a beating from tactical nuke strikes in the field. I'm basically wondering if anyone played out or planned a campaign in Korea that moved this situation forward (i.e. 8th Army resumes offensive operations into North Korea, or a "Going Home" scenario)


Comments/Ideas welcom.

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TR 02-03-2003, 05:45 PM I've always thought the deployments for South Korea a little on the skimpy side... there would have had to be more deployments to that area than accounted for. Of course this doesn't calculate Air Force and Naval unit either unfortunatly.


You would figure they would have to have pockets where the 8th was in control (along with the other units), you figure port areas and surrounding farm communities would be big on the list to be controlled.


I always wondered how troops in Korea would break down, i.e. going native vs staying in the rigid militry heiarchy... same for troops in Japan and other nations of course. That's not always accounted for in the game of course...



Until Later


TR

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Dogger 02-03-2003, 06:04 PM Originally posted by TR

I always wondered how troops in Korea would break down, i.e. going native vs staying in the rigid militry heiarchy... same for troops in Japan and other nations of course. That's not always accounted for in the game of course...


Some good points TR...


That brings up other issues as well, for instance, Japan would not be all that hard to reach from Pusan, S. Korea. A lot of troops might have attempted to make the crossing after things fell apart then stay in Korea...anyone remember what condition Japan was in by July 2000?


Also, I wonder what other nations troops wouild have been deployed to Korea? Australia would most likely have sent some SpecOps I would bet.

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TR 02-03-2003, 06:17 PM I would think Thailand and Singapore might contribute forces seeing how they are in the neighborhood they might be in trouble if South Korea fell.


Who knows...



TR

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Jason Weiser 02-03-2003, 09:29 PM Heh,

Well, there was quite a few theatres demanding troops at the time...but yeah, the deployments to Korea are skimpy. I was surprised no Aussies (Perhaps a Btn TF or two) and perhaps a force from Japan and or Canada?

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Matt Wiser 02-04-2003, 01:18 AM The prewar OB for the area was 2 ID for the Army, 8th TFW at Kunsan AB, ROK with two F-16 squadrons, 51st TFW at Osan AB with one F-16 and one A-10 squadron for the AF, with 432nd TFW with two F-16 squadrons at Misawa AB in Japan, 18th Wing at Kadena AB on Okinawa with three F-15C squadrons and an E-3C AWACS squadron. 7th FLT would have USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63) with CVW-5 (VF-21, VF-154 with F-14D, VFA-146 and VFA-147 with F/A-18C, VA-115 with A-6F, VAW-115 with E-2C, VAQ-136 with EA-6B, VS-21 with S-3B, VQ-5 with ES-3A, and HS-12 with SH-60F/HH-60H. SAC had the 43rd BW on Guam with B-52G/KC-135.

3rd Marine Division and 1st MAW on Okinawa with MAW assets at MCAS Iwakuni in Japan, and MCAS Kanehoe, Hawaii.


See the old forum for USS Constellation battle group at Guam.

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pmulcahy 02-04-2003, 09:13 PM Originally posted by Dogger

Some good points TR...


That brings up other issues as well, for instance, Japan would not be all that hard to reach from Pusan, S. Korea. <snip>


It's not a long stretch of water, but it is by no means a quiet stretch, either. You wouldn't want to try it in a small boat; you would have as hard a time as a Cuban refugee headed to Florida. And in winter, it would be hard to not die of exposure in a small boat. My advice would be to get a ship, the larger, the better.

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Dogger 02-05-2003, 01:36 PM Matt,


Some great info there Thanx <S>.



Paul,


I agree about the waters between S.Korea and Japan, my thinking would be that departing units would have done so while there were still large enough ships operating to make the trip in a more or less save manner.


However, that thought makes me wonder about how far feched it might be to run into one of the few soviet attack subs still prowling the Sea of Japan ?

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[Legbreaker]

Having a little time on my hands at the moment I decided to take a look through the archives and found this.

My immediate thoughts were that the Korean War of the early 50's was never actually concluded - there was basically just a ceasefire. Also this was essentially a war between North Korea/China and the United Nations.
With that in mind, I'd be most surprised if we weren't to find all types of nationalities in the area (which would explain what some feel to be minimal US troop numbers). It's quite possible in my mind that many of the neutral countries in the war in Europe are involved here - France, South Africa, Chile, Brasil, Argentina, Japan, and so on. Who knows, you might even find a Swiss unit or two floating about!

[pmulcahy11b]

That's true, there's still just an Armistice -- the longest-lasting one in the world.

Late-1980s and early 1990s (T2K v1, I guess) short-term help would have come from the 25th ID in Hawaii, the 82nd Airborne, 7th ID in California, and later the 9th ID in Washington, as well as the Marines in Japan and Okinawa, and the Special Forces unit in Okinawa. Help from elsewhere at the time was dicey, but might have included the British, Australians, and New Zealanders; there was an outside chance for Singaporean and Japanese help (the latter very dicey -- the Japanese were really big on neutrality at the time and the ROKs still held a grudge against the Japanese for the treatment they got during World War 2). Air support would have come out of Japan, Okinawa, and the Philippines, and three carrier task forces might have shown up rather quickly, including battleships, which were still operational at the time.

In T2K, a lot of that help would not have been available, as they were deployed elsewhere. Korea would have become a forgotten corner of the war, with the troops there largely on their own. But balancing this, the Chinese in T2K would have stayed out of a PRK invasion of South Korea, and the Russians may also have decided they had too much to handle with a war in China and Europe and stayed out of it as well.

An untapped asset in T2K is South Korean guerrilla activity. In the late 1980s, there were some 18,000 Korean Vietnam vets in South Korea -- and South Korean forces were known to be especially vicious in Vietnam. One CSM I had in the Army said, "The ROKs would go into a village, and when they were done, nothing was left." These vets could become trainers for ROK guerrillas or even regular forces drafted into the Army.

[HorseSoldier]

With Japan being in something like France's position in the Pacific, I had the thought that they might be interested in arranging a Going Home scenario for US forces in Korea, though maybe with some strings attached. My personal thought was that they might recruit US forces to provide the muscle for a Japanese attempt to get the Alaska pipeline back up and running -- the big Soviet troop concentration in Anchorage can't really do anything to interfere with the pipeline, which runs well east of there, and by 2000/2001 they're pretty much falling apart anyway.

Any number of alternate missions could be equally plausible, some CONUS and some elsewhere in the Pacific (security/pirate suppression for Japanese merchant ships, etc.). Could be an interesting campaign idea.

[JHart]

I always wondered if China, on the ropes with the Soviets at the gate, asks the Norks to send help to fight the Soviets, or if the Soviets cut a deal with the Norks to keep them out of it.

THe Norks would be in the catbird seat for a little while. China asks for help, the Norks go to the Soviets and say China's offer is on the table, what do you have?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by JHart

I always wondered if China, on the ropes with the Soviets at the gate, asks the Norks to send help to fight the Soviets, or if the Soviets cut a deal with the Norks to keep them out of it.

THe Norks would be in the catbird seat for a little while. China asks for help, the Norks go to the Soviets and say China's offer is on the table, what do you have?

That brings up an interesting possibility -- Second Korean War averted. If the PRK accedes to Chinese demands for help, the North Korean people might, with a significant number of North Korean troops out of the country, attempt a revolution. Though they may be too indoctrinated for that. A revolution in North Korea might also bring up a second interesting possibility -- an invasion of the North by the South "to help." Where would the US be in that one?