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Op Omega, Milgov & CivGov, farming & world recovery
ReHerakhte
Op Omega, MilGov & CivGov, farming & world recovery Ed the Coastie's thread and a few other threads (such as TR's mention of Howling Wilderness and CivGov) got me trawling through some of my archive files. I have a large compilation made from two threads dealing with Operation Omega, the recovery of the USA regards MilGov & CivGov and farming/agriculture dated from 2002. Included is some real world data about farming and so on. Unfortunately, although it's only 200kb in size it's about 30 pages long so I can't repost it here in one hit but will post it in installments if anyone's interested. Cheers, Kevin __________________ It's not whether you win or lose... It's whether I win. ***************** graebarde Philosopher I would be interested in seeing it. You could send it to me e-mail if you want. Definately interested though. grae __________________ When you die, we're splitting up your gear! ***************** thefusilier 5 Sounds good. Hey, I too would like to read it. Or like graebarde said, by email. I always wished Howling Wilderness was more in depth, so in filling the gaps, would like to see your material. The Fusilier ***************** shrike6 Count me in among those who'd like to read it as well. __________________ ***************** TiggerCCW UK I'm definitely interested in it as well. Again, feel free to email it to me if you don't want to post it all here. __________________ 'Do you see yon loons on yon grey hill? Well, if ye dinna kill them, they'll kill you!' - Sir Andrew Agnew, Battle of Dettingen 1743 ***************** pmulcahy Someone needs to invent more diet food! Count me in! __________________ Before we work on artificial intelligence, why don't we do something about natural stupidity? --Steve Polyak ***************** Antenna Evil Game Master å, Sweden I would like to see your work to Antenna ***************** Jason Weiser Roadkill on the information superhighway me too! ***************** Ed the Coastie Yeah...deal me in on that, too. ***************** ReHerakhte Part One Okay, first up, this is a compilation of threads so I am not the author, just a mad collector of info with a dodgy archive system so apologies if I gave the impression that this was my own work. Considering these threads ran on the old Townhall RPG server, some of you are going to recognise names of former & present members (Paul, you crop up a few times and TR makes an appearance too!) Part the First... Twilight 2000 Operation Omega thread From the Townhall WebRPG forums Subject: Operation Omega Posted by: Nick Butta Date: 07/30/2002 00:16 We can probably create a model for reconstruction based on the 43,000 troops who return. Lets assume that there are 50,000 troops in total in the area of return (Virginia). These 50,000 troops should initially be able to - once organised control an area populated by approximately 500,000 people assuming that ten soldiers can protect 100 people. The next step in this model is to work out the number out of the 500,000 people who are required to work to feed the 500,000. Then we can work out the number of surplus workers and use that figure to work out the resources available for reconstruction. Once the environment is more stablised the 10 soldiers protecting 100 ratio will increase. Perhaps, if successful the number of people in this community or settlement could double to one million after a year, two million after two years. Particularly if militia are organised for internal security - allowing the 50,000 trained soldiers to maintain external security. The region as a whole is quite a good one i believe as it has coal for heating and power generation and is near the coast - which would allow for trade by sea up and down the coast and potentially as far away as the middle east (oil!!!!). ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: El Tee Date: 07/30/2002 13:16 I hadn’t put much thought into the ratio of soldiers/citizen for defense purposes, but I’d probably consider units being sent out in anti-marauder activity as part of the "active" defense of the region. After the events of various modules occur, and supposing that a good portion of the returnees of OpOmega stay in the military - I’d say 85% or better, (see Webstral’s post in another thread, for example) Milgov controls a good portion of the East Coast - with outposts in the Northeast (New England, New York), Virginia, and, depending on different referee’s take on the situation, more outposts all the way down to Florida. With troops returning from overseas assignments (on the West Coast, the forces from Korea), Milgov could continue to project power, at least enough to fight effectively against New America. As Nick Butta mentions, with this kind of security, more refugees will tend to gravitate towards the Milgov enclave for protection/survival. The policy might amount to "you work hard and follow the law, you get to eat" which would be a great motivating factor for the refugees. Those with a particular skill would be even more valuable in the rebuilding of society. In sum, I don’t think those returning from Europe or wherever else would be anxious to get out, simply because staying in offers them stability and a better chance at survival. El Tee ________________________________________ (Next section was too long to fit into one post but I didn't want to break it up so Part Two follows - Cheers, Kevin) ***************** ReHerakhte Part the Second... Subject: after Omega (non canon) Posted by: Brian S. Date: 07/30/2002 13:25 Nick, I found this webpage interesting. You might too. http://www.physics.ucf.edu/~bar/t2kplan.html Conjecture Here's my take on the future of the T2K universe. I'm aware that many fans of the game are rather dismissive of the continuation in Traveller: 2300, and for me that spoils the inherent interactive nature of the game; what's the sense in playing if you can't affect the present? I've also noticed a number of people who don't like the US depicted in Howling Wilderness. However, I find that even the situation depicted there isn't hopeless, just an example of the realism of GDW's games. Nuclear war ain't pretty. Listed here are the future plans of CivGov, MilGov, the unclaimed states, Caldwell's new enclave, and the mysterious fate of the 7th Army. Also, what about the troops still overseas? (More of a question in that case) CivGov’s plans – CivGov is in dire straits, and the President knows it. He has sidestepped the drought issue in typical bureaucratic fashion by announcing the capital would remain in Omaha – and then start relocating people. However, most of the fears of the Wisconsiners are unfounded; the shift in rain patterns has made the Great Lakes some of the most fertile terrain on the continent and they are seriously overestimating how many people are involved, thinking mostly in pre-war terms. Most people in Nebraska decided to move when it became clear how bad the food situation would be. Caldwell succeeds in moving the enclave into the Ohio River valley, despite the chaos in Pennsylvania and the marauder bands lurking in the valley. Fortunately, the 228th Infantry Brigade has survived intact, with soldiers from the European evacuation keeping their numbers the same (about 1000 men). They have established several garrisons across eastern Indiana and western Ohio; Findlay, Ohio being the farthest eastern control; the crucial river junction town of Defiance, Ohio; Greenville, Ohio; the city of Fort Wayne, Indiana; Muncie, Indiana; city of Lima, Ohio; and Elida, Ohio. The 184th IB has made it, with 1400 men and 7 M60A4s, Hqed in Camp Atterbury, nominally responsible for southern Ohio and Indiana, but mostly concentrated in eastern Indiana. The Ohio state government collapses under the storm of refugees, but the Indiana government (still in Indianapolis) declares for CivGov, despite the MilGov presence in Evansville. Caldwell begins a training program so that civilians will have something to do and to desperately replace much-needed specialists. He also has recovered a number of secret caches, some dating back to the 1950s, that the government had buried and forgotten about. Those not in the immediate area he has turned over the location of to the units nearby, whether MilGov or CivGov. His current base of operations is Fort Wayne, and a cache from the Carter administration has supplied a rather large number of solar cells to provide rudimentary electricity to the immediate region. The 108th Infantry Division (Light), already planning an evacuation, are given an opportunity when the city government of Orlando invites the division to base there. They abandon Fort Benning and Fort Stewart, although they turn them over to relatively friendly local militias, and group at Camp Blanding to reorganize. HQ is established at Orlando, Florida (3000 men, 4 M728 CEVs); currently they have formed a “corridor” down central Florida, running from Orlando north to Gainesville (working with the militia there) and Ocala, to a northern post at Camp Blanding. They are currently attempting to convince the Tallahassee state government to relocate, and the military troops in Pensecola to stop fighting each other; also, the reason why Orlando invited them, to stop the cities of Saint Petersburg and Jacksonville and the Seminoles from ravaging the city. They 108th was joined, surprisingly, by the 30th Engineer Brigade (1200, 2 M728 CEVs) who were forced out of South Carolina by the drought and headed to Florida without contacting anyone. The 30th is engaged in various reconstruction tasks along the Corridor. Eventually, the lack of New America’s leader and a growing problem with refugees will cause the Saint Petersburg enclave to collapse, leading to chaos; similarly, the Jacksonville enclave will fall into anarchy as the St. Petersburg NA enclave had control over two of the three factions there. The only problems remaining will be the Seminoles and the turbulent city of Miami, which is the only port in Florida which is still receiving meager international trade. The main enclave of CivGov remains; north and central Missouri, eastern Nebraska, Iowa, northwestern Illinois, southeastern South Dakota, south Wisconsin, southern Minnesota and eastern Kansas. The drought will cause the ownership of eastern Kansas to exist only in name, the rest of CivGov’s enclave will remain rather constant, and in fact as more civilians are pulled from the west it will expand around the Great Lakes, linking up with Caldwell’s enclave around Chicago and Gary. MilGov’s plans – MilGov had a number of grandoise plans, as Brigadier General Cummings himself had put forward. Unfortunately, the emergence of New America spoiled a number of these plans, and the drought caused an unexpected increase in desperate marauders trying to get food, any food. In the far east, MilGov was originally scheduled to take over New York City, a major coup over CivGov in the area and cementing control over the central eastern seaboard. The mission was destined to fail from the start, especially since the retaking of a large metropolitian area had no practical value; however, MilGov did recover the European gold reserves, which was quickly shipped back to Colorado via the long military convoy route. They had also maintained XII Corps HQ thinking they would get back in touch with the 43rd MPB, but once the story of Colonel Fort being killed and the brigade dispersing, the Corps and 1st Army HQ was disbanded; the 78th Infantry Division was left on its own in Fort Dix, NJ. However, the European evacuation produced a large number of rootless troops, and when the evacuated Norfolk enclave arrives at Fort Dix in late July 2001, they find out that 4000 troops have arrived (out of 13,300 troops that had come from disbanded or destroyed divisions in Europe; the rest were tapped for replacements for other divisions, or left to join CivGov, or left to wander home or form marauder bands). Mounting a raid into the now-virtually-deserted NYC, they grab various long-range communications equipment to contact MilGov. Out of all the mid-Atlantic states New Jersey has had a decent, if meagre, harvest, and the troops are probably going to be reorganized into new divisions and the 1st Army reactivated. Southern New Jersey will be totally under the control of MilGov, and they have orders to hold the river lines and let the marauder bands exhaust themselves through the winter before trying to expand. A disaster of sorts struck in Oklahoma; the drought forced a large number of howling mobs and desperate marauder bands to descend increasingly on the state. Unfortunately, the 90th Corps both could not hold them back nor retreat due to the oil fields it occupied. In Dec 2001, 90th Corps HQ was overrun and destroyed, and the front collapsed. This was the final straw for Cummings, and with the loss of his primary source of oil reserves he knew that it was time to come to some sort of agreement or the US would face extinction. He contacted President Broward, who was faced with his own problems, and also surprisingly the Provisional Canadian Government. It took a brief amount of time at a summit in Omaha to decide upon a formal reconciliation between CivGov and MilGov. On the surface, in fact, it looked as if the United States was not only whole again, but that Canada had joined as well. In reality, the meeting was basically an agreement to not attack each other and to assist each other when possible. This allowed both MilGov and CivGov to pull much-needed troops from their respective borders between them and move them elsewhere. For the Canadian forces, it gave them a threat to hold over the revolting forces in Quebec. The 49th Armored Division, having survived a similar incident in 1999, managed to regroup and head towards Arkansas (Fort Smith, 1000 men, 1 M60A4, 1 M1, 2 Stingrays) and help fend off the marauders attacking there. The 95th Infantry Division simply pulled back to western Kansas (1800 men, 1 M60A4) where the attacks began petering out and they manage to stablize the line. The only silver lining to this dismal turn of events is that the commander of the 95th managed to pilfer a number of crucial components from all the refineries, rendering them useless to marauder bands, hoping that they would still not destroy them in order to somehow use them themselves. MilGov’s plans to control the Mississippi River valley was more successful. Currently southern Missouri, all of Arkansas, and northern Louisiana is under their control, and in Kentucky and Tennessee they control the land within 100 km of the river. Northwards, they hold Cairo and the newly-restored refinery at Robinson, and southward have small enclaves along the Mississippi border to Baton Rouge to assist barge traffic. Eventually they hope to control the mouth of the river, but New Orleans is no longer located there as the river mouth has shifted. Northern California has stabilized somewhat under MilGov control, and the quadrangle of Oregon, Washington, Montana and Wyoming is also under MilGov; the weather patterns has made this region fertile. The main problem here is the New America enclave in the Snake River valley, which is cutting access to the Seattle MilGov enclave. Idaho is otherwise in their control. Colorado itself is in little danger, and Cummings has done a number of small things, including reopening the Federal Mint in Denver, finishing radiation cleanup in Colorado Springs (from the Cheyenne Mountain blast), and open three more power plants (much like the ones in Saint Petersburg, burning trash). Factories in the Denver area have begun to put out limited products, and the people living in the Denver/Colorado Springs area are some of the most contented people in America, which in 2001 isn’t saying much. Cummings also benefits from having control over NORAD; while the HQ at Cheyenne Mountain was destroyed by a burrowing nuke, a top-secret secondary center had been created nearby in case of such an emergency. While all the military satellites are gone, there are still a number of useful functions of the base (one of which is that the EMPs didn’t penetrate) and was responsible in part for detecting the crash of the Russian weather satellite in Feb 2001. Of course, the big question is, what happened to the 7th Army? During the European evacuation, a number of units maintained their integrity and came across. It would be rather absurd if they dispersed when they came back, and they didn’t; MilGov needed every last troop. Unfortunately, they were a number of armored units, that had left behind all their armor in Germany. Cummings decided to set into motion Operation Scavenger, to hit every last vehicle and heavy weapons manufacturer/cache/marauder group to resupply the units with whatever they could scrounge up. Also, these troops had been fighting almost constantly in Europe and were under extreme battle fatiuge, and were given smaller tasks such as salvage, guarding the borders with Canada or CivGov, or farming until they were ready. They weren’t ready in time to save Oklahoma, but now the refitting of the 7th Army is done and in spring of 2002 MilGov will expand again. Current troops of the 7th Army (Jan 2002): 7th US Army HQ – Colorado Springs, Colorado. I US Corps HQ – Shreveport, Louisiana. Mission: To prevent overrunning of the northern Louisiana enclave by marauders from east Texas and Mississippi. Extend control to the mouth of the Mississippi. 3rd US Mechanized Division (5000 men, M1, 2 Stingrays, M60A4) 6th US Infantry Division, Light (2000 men) 38th US Infantry Division (4000 men) 278th US Armored Cavalry Regiment (400 men, 3 Stingrays) V US Corps HQ – Salt Lake City, Utah. Mission: To re-establish control over Utah. To destroy the New America enclave in the Snake River valley and recontact Seattle. 3rd US Armored Division (5000 men, 2 M728 CEVs, M1A2, 1 Stingray) 28th US Infantry Division (1000 men) 4th US Mechanized Division (1000 men, 2 M1s) XV US Corps HQ – Muskogee, Oklahoma. Mission: Retake the Oklahoma oil fields. Redeploy and protect Oklahoma and northern Texas. 1st US Armored Division (4000 men) 2nd Armored Division – 2nd Brigade (300 men, 3 LAV-75s) 44th US Armored Division (2000 men, 5 M1s) 35th US Mechanized Division (2000 men). MilGov should come out top in both the retaking of Oklahoma and the destruction of the Snake River enclave, but whether they can hold onto northern Louisiana is anyone’s guess. MilGov will undergo a major surprise when they re-contact Seattle; the USS Corpus Christi, a nuclear sub, took the long way around the coast of Russia and down into Seattle, and arrived with a special surprise; two dissident Russian scientists who had come up with a cheap and easy way to create cold fusion. The Redmond Test Reactor went on-line in Oct 2001, and was a success. Now the 47th Infantry Division devotes itself to building a larger reactor and providing power to the region, also salvaging high-tech equipment from the various laboratories in the Seattle area. Once the secret reaches MilGov and CivGov, reconstruction can finally begin in earnest. MilGov has begun retooling for the “new age” of warfare, starting with the first construction of military vehicles since the bombs fell – ultralights and dirigibles, used with great effectiveness by the New America enclave in Arkansas. They have also begun (mostly in Colorado) the manufacture of portable storage cells (chemical batteries, fuel cells) and portable ethanol/methanol engines for military personnel and trade with civilians for useful items. Other States – The entire northeast is virtually total anarchy. New America controls northern Maine and New York, but both enclaves will be dead by year’s end. The Gloucestermen, an alliance of fishermen, control the coast from Portland down to Gloucester, Massachucetts, and have fortified their villages against the starving hordes and will survive the winter. The UBF, nominally CivGov but really themeselves, controls all of Cape Cod, and trade along the Massachucetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut coast. The Isolationists controlling Rhode Island are in desperate turmoil; their crops are failing and the dispersed 43rd MPB have been menancing them, as former members remember what the Isolationists did to their brigade. Boston is becoming increasingly abandoned, and central Massachucetts is controlled by the remnants of the 43rd. The only forces of good in the region are the Gloucestermen, a strong militia in Salem, and a newly-formed Roman Catholic monk brotherhood which operates in the three-state region. To the north, Vermont and New Hampshire are becoming pre-colonial but Canadian troops are occasionally spotted in the north. The Great Lakes coast of New York is becoming the last stop for a number of refugees from Ohio and Pennsylvania. New York City is virtually a ghost town now, with isolated communities huddled in farmed parks. Long Island is actually doing okay, as most people fled the other way, and the UBF has begun trade with them; the 78th in New Jersey is thinking about establishing an outpost here. Pennsylvania’s state government in Harrisburg is beseiged and is really just a city government at this point. National Guardsmen protect the town, however, and it has not been overrun. The regions around Pittsburgh have dissolved into chaos, taking some of the locals with them. Maryland and Virginia are becoming desolate, as no crops are growing. Marauders are ruining the states. Oddly enough, the abandoned MilGov enclave around the radioactive ruins of Norfolk has become the last home for a number of people, as the defenses are in place and the ruins make most marauders turn away. Otherwise, marauders have successfully raided and destroyed any settlements town to the coast, except in Delaware where a number of coastal villages have banded together like the Gloucestermen. West Virginia was in the process of being conquered by New America during 2001 until the capture of Hughes in April and the passage of CivGov in the summer. Both events took them by surprise, and CivGov managed to capture the supply dump at Bolivar and Hughes’ former residence near Charles Town (while various underlings squabbled inside about what to do with Hughes gone); not only capturing tons of food, thousands of rounds of ammo, and hundreds of weapons, but Hughes' home was virtually a supply cache in of itself, including a number of mainframe computers still in operation. Whatever wasn’t taken was destroyed. Once the CivGov troops left, the New American troops regrouped and took over Winchester. However, as the summer turns into autumn, they have come into conflict with a number of local marauder bands, and by November will be finished as an effective fighting force. The situation gets even bleaker down the coast. South and North Carolina, once the provinces of CivGov and New America, now belong to no one. Forest fires and the drought have ended any large settlements existing and marauders can pick at the smaller ones before they too succumb to starvation. A few isolated spots may hold out. Georgia is somewhere in between. While the drought has hit hard, there are a number of determined communities and anti-marauder groups that have attracted large numbers of citizens. The state will survive, but only as a series of isolated communities. Refugees will pour out of the state into Florida and Tenneessee. Refugees from the other states will plow into Florida, which while is now nominally CivGov still has large regions uncontrolled. They will descend around CivGov’s control to Jacksonville and Saint Petersburg, eventually collapsing the governments there but leaving those regions in chaos for a while. Both Kentucky and Tennessee will be hit hard by refugees from the mid-Atlantic states, and MilGov will pull back the garrisons from such towns as Nashville to maintain control over the regions near the Mississippi River. The presence of CivGov in the north, however, will box them in and by winter’s end the refugee problem will be over due to fighting and starvation. The drought is incredibly brutal in Alabama, Mississippi, and southern Louisiana. Some survive at the ocean’s edge in the first two states but the swamplands of southern Louisiana are virtually deserted. Both northern Louisiana and Arkansas have such reduced populations thanks to the Mexican Army, the Texan Legion and New America that the drought isn’t as bad. (Aack! This was still too long, sorry everyone, the rest of this follows - Cheers, Kevin) ***************** ReHerakhte Continuation of Part the Second... All the southwestern states have been hard hit. Central Texas is a powder keg of marauders exploding outward. The Southern Grange Association has been holding on, barely. The various army units in southern Texas are becoming desperate and rumor has it that the Russians are planning on marching on the ruins of Los Angeles in order to find shipping home, perhaps turning over their heavy equipment to the Americans or Mexicans for a ride much like the Americans did in Germany. Scattered people live across Arizona and New Mexico but there is no state government or American military groups in any large amounts. Utah had been increasing their use of martial law from the beginning of the exchange, but the state government finally collapses towards the fall. MilGov will make restoring Utah’s government a top priority for the coming year. American Troops elsewhere – After the success of Operation Omega, the question is: how do we get the other troops home? CivGov is in a bind, since President Broward has gotten flak for sending the troops to Yugoslavia in the first place when they were desperately needed home. Unfortunately, plans to bring them home (begun when MilGov began the European evacuation) fell through when CivGov abandoned the Atlantic coast and it was discovered that the French had mined the Straits of Gilbratar. In the case of Korea, the vast distance involved, plus the fact that the Russian troops there show no signs that they believe the war is over, leaves this plan to the distant future. Cummings wishes to re-establish communications with Hawaii first, probably via the USS Corpus Christi, or the remnants of the US Navy. Finally, there is Iran, where it seems the American troops are better off than they are in America! The question currently is not “How do we get them home?” but rather “How do we get regular fuel shipments from Iran?” Once the fusion tech becomes available, however, the latter will be a moot question. In any case, in the summer of 2001 a major civil war erupts in Iran when a war hero and his unit defects and the Soviet lines collapse. By the end of the year, Georgia will have declared its independence, the last of the former Soviet republics (with the exception of Byelorussia) to do so, closing the main supply lines back to Russia and effectively closing that theatre of war. So to answer the question: probably MilGov and/or CivGov will have to send troops back to the east coast, and scavenge various ships on both coasts to take their troops home. It should be noted that MilGov still has Task Force 34 (which, while German, they planned to keep – after all, they were turning over all their heavy equipment, and deserved something in return!) probably under the Fort Dix command. End ________________________________________ Subject: RE: after Omega (non canon) Posted by: Cav Scout Date: 07/30/2002 16:41 That site is a bit confusing -- in the MilGov section he initially says only 13.3K personnel were retained in service, but then at the bottom of the page he has about double that forming a reconstituted 7th Army which somehow scares up as many or more armored vehicles as the rest of MilGov had to its name before they arrive (there must be some hand wringing and forehead slapping there . . . "oh . . . those tanks . . . we forgot all about them, no go ahead and take them . . .") and somehow relocate en masse to the midwest and American west. I’d put more money on the idea of tying down the east coast as people have outlined on here in the last day. As for units, I’d guess there’d be some significant alteration from the order of battle that got on the boats, maybe even a reversion of a brigade, regiment or battalion-centric organization rather than divisions at 10-20% authorized strength (going back to another recent topic of discussion). Also, at that guy’s site he talks about the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs being "Brigadier General" Cummings. Is there any support for that claim from T2K stuff? In Howling Wilderness and Gateway to the Spanish Main he’s always called "General" as far as I can recall/find. From GttSM we know he was a full colonel in 1983, with either the Rangers or 82nd Airborne at Port Salines Airport, and there’s no mention of him stepping up to assume command that I’ve found yet, so I just assumed he was a four star in 1996. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: after Omega (non canon) Posted by: Nick Butta Date: 07/30/2002 18:57 That guys players did pretty well in that timeline: Why - they discovered the secret cache, rescued the russian scientists, recovered the gold and caused the collapse of the russian army in Iran. Pretty clever guys ; - ) It just seems a bit too much like the fusion discovery comes along and solves everything, the world is destroyed by a nuclear exchange, then a massive drought causes the collapse of civilisation but its OK because we’ve got COLD FUSION to give us power. I may be departing from canon - especially Howling Wilderness but I think that a recovery from regional recovery and reconstruction rather than the all-cure of Cold Fusion is more interesting. There is commentary in the Allegheny Uprising about Caldwell’s plans to expand in Pennsylvania to recover the coal mines and other resources which implies a long-term reconstruction plan which I find a lot more interesting. The dislocation and desparation of the drought from Howling Wilderness was just too hopeless for me I’m afraid. Its not the bleakness of the situation, its the fact that there’s nothing to do except travel around and take what you can from where you can. It sux. On an unrelated topic - does anyone know the number of people that would be required to work in labor intensive agriculture to feed half a million people. I realise that this will depend a lot on crops, land, weather etc but any ballpark figure will be fine ?? You could then put the surplus labour into mining coal and producing infrastructure and assuming a reasonable degree of stability and productivity increasing levels of surplus food production would allow more surplus labor and more industry/infrastructure. ________________________________________ Subject: SourceFile:Los Angelos to SF... Posted by: Date: 07/30/2002 19:48 Heres what my sources are telling me about the West Coast... As we all know, for several years leading up to tactical nuclear strikes in the LA basin, many situations had already decantralized control in the region. Economic hardship, dissent towards the formal reinstitution of the draft, and rampant organized and unorganized crime made this region a hotbed for anarchy from the get-go. It appears that the Tactical nuke headed to Long Beach was intentionally diverted inland, my assumption bieng the Russian high command had considered Long Beach too valuable an asset to destroy and, instead, cutting off it’s access to the interior of united states. The type of warhead used was also of a lower level of lethality, causing massive firestorms and destruction but leaving most outlying hard structures such as warehouses, some freeway infrastructure, and massive amounts of rail and railways intact. The lead to the re institution of wood and coal burning locomotives and "technicals" to be carried on flatbed cars till needed. Suprisingly, the Dockers Union, several city employee groups, and other various "civil" factions maintained a cohesive control structure and immediately marshalized control of the docks, extensive railyards, and miles upon miles of warehouse districts into a huge supply dump. My man in the fields best estimates: 4500 ex law enforcement officers 15000 "militia" of various capacity 150,000 strong citizen pool, mostly laborers and skilled artisans 120 Armored Trains, to both ferry trade goods and wage attacks 600 (rough estimite) SUV type armored vehicles 250 strong fleet of "Big Rigs", armored to the teeth as armored semis with escorts From Los Alamitos: 37 Helicopter(including 3 cobras) 180 Heavy trucks of various sizes 12 M1A2 Main Battle Tanks 37 Humvee’s, with various armaments Small arms to man 2 National Guard divisions 25 APC’s (envisioned to quell riots) Note: Included in this union are the Long Beach dockers union, which, immediately upon news of an East Coast strike, moved 7 Oil Frieghters to the Anacapa Island with a 200 man LAPD swat team enterage and 3 helicopters. These tankers have not even been 1/4 depleted and are still docked of Anacapa island, constituting their biggest asset. The other major faction in the region is various street gangs, running rampant on murdering rampages thruought southern california, where millions of vehicles are still around. Numbering well into half a million members in 40 major factions, they battle the borders of "New LA Union" constantly and have destroyed all nieghboring weaker cities, branching into the slave trade with Mexico and South America. I-5 is mostly "New Union" controlled, however, patrolled by various technicals, APCs, gaurd towers and armored semis as the alliance maintains trade North to the Las Vegas area and makes convoy runs to Portland and Seattle. The situation is tense, and it appears that the oncoming Soviet advancement will have to play its cards safely, for the "New Union’s" power is growing every day. Vast land farms in the Ventura Area, as well as the control of Lake Casitas, are fueling the regrowth of a massive new marshal infrastructure. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: after Omega (non canon) Posted by: El Tee Date: 07/30/2002 20:06 This is going to go a bit OT, but it relates to the question as to how much food a farm could produce, so if that interests you, read on...I don’t know much about farming, so consider yourself warned. My wife’s aunt runs an organic farm not too far from where we live (don’t know the exact acreage/size), and here are the particulars I can remember: -Work Force/Labor: five family members (aunt, husband, three kids, eldest is teen-aged), a "regular" staff of twelve employees who do everything from taking care of the cows to raising the livestock to harvesting their crops as well as training the journeymen (see below) -journeymen/apprentices pay the family to learn and live on the farm, they usually have anywhere from one to four dozen, depending on the season; they produce enough to feed everyone on the farm several times over, sell enough surplus to have a fairly hefty profit (even after accounting for new equipment, repairs, materials, etc.) AND have enough to bring food to every surrounding extended family. Counting my wife and I, that’s six or seven families, with an average of four people to feed. While we don’t necessarily partake in the free food all the time, her aunt laments all the time about "all the food they’ll have to throw away" if we don’t take some. It’s a bit of a drive from our house in the suburbs to their farm (1 1/2 hours+) to get as much food as we can pile into one of our cars, which really isn’t that much considering the trouble we go through, but it’s free and of good quality so I shouldn’t complain. I’d guess that they could feed about 100-150 people, not counting themselves with what they produce (so all in all, roughly 200 people, mostly year round, if you store it properly). Then again, this is just from what I’ve seen on their farm, I couldn’t list specifics or anything like that. I should also mention that they don’t use all that much technology in farming (part of their "claim to fame") - mostly man or animal power for everything, they use generators to provide energy when necessary...so their farm is a pretty good example of how a farm might run post-twilight war. Okay, now away from the agriculture part of our show...I thought Howling Wilderness was particularly harsh as well. I got the feeling that the military wasn’t very effective, and most of the population either roamed around finding what they could to survive or stayed in one place and tried to cope. All the campaigns that I’ve been involved in I’ve deviated from much of what’s been described in that module. Overall, like most of you, I’m fairly optimistic as to how the US fares after the return of overseas forces. El Tee ________________________________________ (Next section needed to be broken into two parts also, it deals with agriculture specifically) Subject: RE: RE: RE: after Omega (non canon) Posted by: Cav Scout Date: 07/30/2002 20:28 >>On an unrelated topic - does anyone know the number of people that would be required to work in labor intensive agriculture to feed half a million people. I realise that this will depend a lot on crops, land, weather etc but any ballpark figure will be fine ?? << This site doesn’t directly answer the question for T2K, but does provide a variety of statistical figures which might be useful (it deals with medieval agriculture) -- http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Agricult.htm Short version is 80-90% of the medieval population were involved in agriculture (don’t know if that number also includes fishermen). I think with modern methods and technology something like 1.5-2% of the US population is involved in farming, fishing, other agricultural work or forestry. T2K should be somewhere in between, of course, but where exactly a given community falls on that continuum is going to be dependent on lots of variables. My guess is things would slant more towards the medieval numbers but not quite reach them, most places. Agriculture ________________________________________ The foundation of the Medieval economy was agriculture. Throughout Europe, 80-90 percent of the population struggled to coax a living, and perhaps a surplus, out of the soil. It wasn't easy, but using a wide variety of techniques it was done and often with marked success. While crops varied somewhat depending on the climate and soil quality, England and France saw mostly wheat, barley, peas and oats being grown, along with vegetables, vinyards and fruit orchards. Medieval agriculture, like that still practiced in many Third World areas, got by without machines, hybrid seed or chemical fertilizer. A horse, an ox, or a wife, was used to pull the plow. Harvesting was done by hand. Crops available for export went a short distance by ox cart, and thence by river barge or sea going ship to market. For local consumption there were vegetable gardens and fruit trees. Fruit, however, was often turned into cider for export or winter use. Berrys, nuts and anything else eatable was also gathered when available. Bee hives were kept to produce honey . These subsidiary crops kept the farmers busy most of the time, for the main crops only required a few weeks intense labor at planting and harvesting time. To compensate for the lack of modern fertilizer, the farmland was treated with animal (and sometimes human) manure, and allowed to remain fallow every second ot third year. When fallow, the field was sometimes planted with legumes (peas, beans) that restored the lost nitrogen in the soil. Medieval peasants didn't understand the chemistry of this, but had learned by trial and error over the centuries that it worked. The normal practice was to to leave a field fallow every other year, and more adept farmers would plant leguemes in the fallow year, which increased the nitrogen content of the soil. But if the land was particularly good, the climate right and the farmer particularly skillful, one could get away with fallowing a field every third year. Normally, however, farmers would switch beween the two methods depending on what they thought they could get away with. Too many "every third year" cycles would reduce the yields noticiably, at which point the farmer would have no choice but to use every other year fallowing in order to rebuild the fertility of the land. The Romans had been avid students of agriculture, and much of that knowledge survived either in practice or in the collection of Roman era manuscripts preserved at monasteries. The Romans were enthusiastic letter writers and a favorite subject was food, how to produce it and how to prepare it. Many of these letters survived the fall of the empire and much knowledge was gained from them. There were two major agricultural innovations that appeared after the Roman government fell. One was the mould-board plow. This elaborate metal and wood device was developed by Slavic tribes and spread west from the 6th century on. It's design allowed six ot more oxen to pull a plow and break up virgin ground, or the heavy, clay laden soils typical of northern Europe. As an example of the impact of this new plow, consider the huge population growth that occurred after its introduction. The area of France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and the Low Countries had a population that flucturated between 10 and 15 million from 1 AD to 600 AD. In came the new plow and during the next six centuries the population grew to about 36 million (from a low of ten million, as a result of all the invasions and civil strife.) These areas now support a population of over 250 million, which gives you an idea of how sparsely populated the area was way back then. The second innovation was the horse collar. Roman --and ancient-- horse tackle was rather inefficient, resulting in an underutilization of an animal's full strength. The horse collar did away allowed horses to be used for pulling a plow, or heavy loads in general. This created a big increase in the horse population, as the horse was more versatile a beast of burden than the ox. With horses more common on farms, more people learned to ride them, which led to English yeomen (who often used horses for their famrs) to be easily mounted on horseback (using captured or stolen French horses.) This made the English armies even more lethal because of their mobility, and the fact that the yeoman infantry didn't wear themselves out marching on foot all over France. (Rest in the next post - Cheers, Kevin) 
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ReHerakhte (Continuation of Agriculture info) Farming was a matter of numbers. While most peasant farmers may have been illiterate, they knew how to count. They knew that wheat would yield 250 to 300 liters of grain per acre (modern famring methods, on the same land, yield over 1,500 liters of grain per acre.) Barley would bring 700-720 liters per acre. The higher yield for barley was partially the nature of the plant, plus the fact that you put 72 liters of seed into each acre of wheat and 144 liters per acre of barley. Oats yielded 360-400 liters an acre, for 108 liters of seed. Peas, an important diet suppllement and protien source, gave 300-340 liters per acre, for 108 liters of seed. Flax and hemp was also grown, to provide rawmaterial for linen and rope. Depending on the nature of the land, the size of the farmers holdings, local weather conditions, and drinking habits, about half the land would be sown in barley. In ale drinking areas (most of England and large parts of France), barley would be needed for making ale. Barley was also a more productive grain, even though it produced a less tasty meal than wheat. A third (or more) of the land would be planted in wheat. The remainder would go for peas and oats. Grain yields of slightly under four times seed grain sown were the norm until the 18th century. There, another burst of innovation brought productivity to ten times seed sown.. In the 20th century, this rose to twenty times. Oddly enough, agricultural experimentation did take place in Medieval times, often at abbeys under the superviion of monks (who were the Medieval scholars and scientists.) Consistant yields of eight times seed sown were reported. But the Medieval period was one of poor communications and strong traditions. The new techniques were not broadcast far and wide and, even if they were, most farmers would be reluctant to change their ancient (and reliable) methods. Moreover, some of the methods, such as using much higher doses of animal manure, were not always possible because there would not have been enough domestic animals available to produce the needed manure. But some of the new techniques, such as denser planting to crowd out weeds, would have worked widely. One could say that the agricultural "reforms" of the 18th century were basically a side effect of the "Age of Enlightenment," whereby the new was given equal opportunity with the traditional. In England, the idea farm size for a family was a "yardland" (24-30 acres) in size. Only about a quarter of the English farm families had this much land (or a bit more) before the Bubonic Plague , most had ten or fewer. Those farmers possessing a yardland were able to work their land efficiently enough to feed themselves and prodice a surplus for sale. Wheat grain could be sold for about 40 ducats a bushel. Barley went for 25-30 ducats a bushel and peas for 15-20 ducats a bushel. In a good year, a yardland of crops could generate grain for sale that would bring 1,500-2,000 ducats. Another thousand ducats could be obtained by selling off cheese, wool, honey, sheep, eggs, fruit and vegetables. Some of this profit was saved, some was spent on repairing or replacing farm equipment and the some went for household neccessities (utensils, salt , furnishings) or luxuries. But a lot went to pay taxes and fees. There were a lot of these. The principal one was the land rent, which varied quite a lot. A rough annual average would be 10-50 ducats per acre. In addition to this there might be payments of a percentage of the main crop, as well as a percentage of the wool taken from sheep (that often grazed on the overlords land.). There were fees for taking over as a new tenant (as when the existing tenant died and his son took over) and fees for the use of the landlords meadows for grazing sheep and forests for taking wood, nuts and berrys. The miller charged 4-5 percent of the grain to grind it into flour. A prudent farmer put aside grain and coin for hard times. While the overlords were supposed to keep reserves of grain for hard times, this was sometimes not the case or the reserves were not adequate. Many farmers knew that for anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand ducats per acre they could purchase better lease terms on their land, or buy the land outright.. Thus the farmer families that were efficient and frugal for generation after generation, eventually found themselves land owners, members of the minir gentry and, eventually, part of the nobility. Medieval farmers did more than just grow grain and peas. Most farmers had one or more horses and oxen, two or more milk cows, a few pigs, several dozen sheep or goats, beehives and some chickens. Many farmers kept geese as well. The horses and/or oxen pulled the plow and did other heavy work. The cows supplied milk, most of which was turned into cheese. The pigs were fattened to supply the main course for major feasts. The sheep supplied wool, which was spun into cloth for the families clothes. The chickens supplied eggs and meat to liven up the diet of peas and porridge. There would also be up to an acre or more in vegetables. During the Summer and Fall, the vegetable garden made meals most palatable. Hemp and flax were also grown, to provide materials for clothing, household goods and tools. There might also be apple or pear trees on the farm, that would yield fruit. In many parts of Europe, apples produced a potent cider, which made the dreary Winter weather more palatable. By Spring, however, food supplies would usually be low, which made Lent as much a virtue as a necessity. The larger the farm, the more different activities there would be. These yardland farmers thus had need of additional labor and would hire farmers of smaller plots. The hired help would cost three to ten ducats a day (depending on the productivity of the worker) plus meals (a few more ducats a day). Specialized work, like re-thatching the farmers house, would run to about ten ducats a day for the thatcher, and 4-5 ducats a day for his assistant. And you had to feed them. Some well off farmers had one or more live in servants. These were relatively cheap, costing as little as 100-250 ducats a year (plus room and board, which could add up to more than the wages. Servants were often the older children of less well off farmers. Afther the Plague, servant's wages went up, as did their maintenance. The hired help demanded better food and lodging, and generally got it once the Plague had created a shortage of servants. The farmer also had to deal with the church and he usually had to pay a title (ten percent) of all produce to the cleric (abbot or bishop) who presided over the manor, plus the usual land rents. The tithing was generally not resented, because the church tended to maintain reserves of grain. In times of need, the faithful to called on the church for relief and, if it was available, it was generally forthcoming. The church preached charity and, in times of need, tended to practice what it preached. For the majority of farmers who had small holdings, life was much less secure. An acre of barley could, in an average year, produce about 500 liters of grain (after making allowances for taxes and seed for the next crop). This was enough to feed one adult for a year at a very basic level. A farmer with a wife and two children could get along with five acres. Everyone would have to work, especially for other sources of food like the vegetable garden and rummaging in the woods for mushrooms, nuts, and berries. But a five acre holding left little margin for bad weather. Several bad years in succession could lead to widespread famine: in England alone 10-15 percent of the population perished from starvation or the effects of malnutrition as a result of a series of unusually wet, cold years from 1315 through 1318.caused a succession of bad harvests. Most of the dead were the farmers with less land. Naturally, there was more land available for the survivors. After the Plague, there was plenty of land, and most European nations date their "national costumes" (from the "good old days") from the centuries following the Plague, when the peasantry prospered because there were many fewer people but the same amount of farmland. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Rainbow Six Date: 07/31/2002 05:34 Just an idle thought that ocurred to me.... Why would the troops return to Norfolk? Norfolk was nuked. Surely the place would still be radiocative rubble, the port faclilities ruined, and anyone landing there would eventually end up glowing in the dark? Wouldn’t the fleet make landfall somewhere else on the Eastern seaboard? Sorry if I’m being pedantic here.... ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Nick Butta Date: 07/31/2002 05:52 Rainbow Six has a very very good point - why Norfolk. As an Aussie I can kind of guess where it is but I have no idea what’s there. Although I know there’s coal in Virginia since the weekends happy news. Thanks to those who provided info on food production. My guess is that maybe 2/3 of people would have to work to feed the population given low levels of skills, loss of machinery and other things like fertilizer. That’s still 160K people who could be producing something to re-create civilisation. That’s a lot of coal even if dug by hand. I guess the real limits are based on what the skill mix of the people you’ve got is..... ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Snake Eyes Date: 07/31/2002 06:21 Rainbow Six pondered: <<<Wouldn’t the fleet make landfall somewhere else on the Eastern seaboard? >>> I didn’t have access to Howling Wilderness at the time I played this out, but (with what I did have) figuring that New England had descended into anarchy and that Norkfolk would be a sheet of bubbling glass, I split the returning fleet between Cape May, NJ, Charleston, SC, and Savannah, GA. I’m not sure I would change this now that I have read Howling Wilderness. YMMV. ~ Snake Eyes ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Paul Mulcahy Date: 07/31/2002 09:29 "Although I know there’s coal in Virginia since the weekends happy news." Although you’re right that there is a lot of coal production in Virginia, the story you are referring to took place in Pennsylvania. ________________________________________ Subject: Operation Omega Posted by: TR Date: 07/31/2002 11:26 Operation OMEGA was always one of those topics I felt was never really explored too greatly... there a lot of variables no one ever truly considered. For example a lot of military personnel have family, friends in other states than where they would be landing. Despite hearing that these areas may have been nuked they would want to go back and look for them. Granted these numbers would not be large compared to the whole of the numbers rolling off the boats... So you’d have numbers of troops with varying degrees of weapons and equipment roaming the country trying to get home. There would be a certain level of stigma and suspicion when the troops came back. The civilian population in the US has run into marauders, raiders, Milgov and Civgov troops. Now they would have large numbers of troops landing in various states. Of course Milgov and Civgov would be fighting over each other to get to these states first to recruit the troops to their cause. Of course the troops might decide NEITHER government is legitimate and form a thrid group to fill the void. Of course there are going to problems with agriculture production being able to meet the need. We have lost so many family farms in the states since the 1980’s we would be looking at reclaiming lands and a shortage of experienced farmers... I would imagine though with enough time and incentive the governments could bring in "experts" to help train the locals in agricultural methods and so forth. And of course any large scale agricultural production will draw the attention of maraduers. So naturally there will need to be forces in the area to track down and remove such groups. Just my thoughts on the subject. TR ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Cav Scout Date: 07/31/2002 12:26 >>For example a lot of military personnel have family, friends in other states than where they would be landing. Despite hearing that these areas may have been nuked they would want to go back and look for them. Granted these numbers would not be large compared to the whole of the numbers rolling off the boats... So you’d have numbers of troops with varying degrees of weapons and equipment roaming the country trying to get home. << Assuming that suppressing marauders and New America collectively represent a sort of counter-insurgency operation, I would think there would be some hearts-and-minds sort of utility to sending various National Guard units back to garrison their home states, when possible. (Note -- I usually assume that circa 2000 most NG units are still made up of 40-50% original personnel, with the remainder being replacements from anywhere.) Coming off the boats from Op Omega you could generate relatively strong garrison for Pennsylvania (28th ID, plus, IIRC, one of the USAR brigades making up the 43rd Division*), plus a brigade or so each for some southern states (Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, the Carolinas). The same could be done for some of midwestern states if a means could be found to get the troops there. On the other hand, the desire might be to send units which still have a regional identity as far from where they were raised as possible, on the assumption guys from Florida won’t desert if they’re stationed in Maine, etc. * 43rd Infantry Division is a big mess. Of its three brigades, one (205th) was actually the round-out for 6th ID(L), and another (187th) was the Cold War-era Iceland Defense Force. This leaves 157th Mech Bde, which, if I remember right, was from the Pennsylvania area. >>I would imagine though with enough time and incentive the governments could bring in "experts" to help train the locals in agricultural methods and so forth. And of course any large scale agricultural production will draw the attention of maraduers. So naturally there will need to be forces in the area to track down and remove such groups.<< Would make a cool campaign, I think, to have some of the European returnees organized into Special Forces style teams, trained up with additional skills not on the current SF syllabus (i.e. farming, tractor repair, aquaculture, etc.) and sent out to the perimeters of MilGov or CivGov controlled areas to stabilize regions, both by getting food production up but also by organizing, training, and leading local militia in bandit and/or New America suppression missions, etc. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: LDD Date: 07/31/2002 13:04 I’m inclined to think quite a few of the returning troops would be heading for home as soon as they got off the boats. Many, having found out just how much anarcy rules the country from salors on the trip home would no doubt be planning to hot foot it for home to see if there family is still alive. Still others have no doubt just "had enough" any of the older "vets" who had made it back from the hell that central europe has become would most likely tell higher command to "get stuffed" upon there return. However, many of the departing troops would probably return to military service once they found there family dead/gone, homes/towns destroyed and no real way to make a living other then military service IMHO. My player group sort of took the middle road. they went to Texas (Red Star/Lone Star) and hired out to the South Texas Grange as part of there security force but they still work for Milgov on select missions as a Spec Ops team. Regards. Lloyd D. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega / Returning troops Posted by: Rainbow Six Date: 07/31/2002 17:11 OK, like Cav Scout I obviously have too much time on my hands, for I’ve been bouncing thoughts around on this one all day. Before I start, apologies if I’m rehashing anything, but this thread seems to have run over several threads, so I may have missed something... OK, let’s take a figure of approx 40K troops returning from Europe (that’s a back of envelope calculation based on the organised units listed in Going Home +/- a few stragglers). First point is how many of these guys want to stay in service? Who knows? On the plus point, they have food, water, plus relative safety in numbers. On the negative side the’re still in the Green machine, which they may not particularly wan to be. So....what does a GI from Seattle, WA do? Risk a multi thousand mile trek across the USA with a few buddies or stay with the crowd? Reference has already been made that these guys are survivors. I think survivors choose the latter. (You could use that logic of course, to state that the closer a GI lived to the disembarkation point the more likliehood he’ll take to the hills first chance he gets. I’ll buy that.) Re: the disembarkation point - I go with Savannah, GA. Fits in perfectly with some work I did for my campaign a while back which has the Savannah / Paris Island area occupied by the USMC units who were in training on Thanksgiving Day ’97. So the fleet lands there - the Marines, being Marines are loyal to MilGov, of course. I think 75% is a fair number to say will remain in service - I realise this is pure assumption on my part, and everyone is going to have thier own opinion on this. So, spend the winter reconstituing, merging the smaller units, requiiping as best as they can, and come the Spring you have two fair sized Corps, - more back of envelope calculations give me somewhere in the region of nine Divisions, average strength 3000 - mostly leg infantry (the Marines have a couple of M60’s, LA25’s and AAVP’s). And there was a CH47 with TF34. Now, what was the first thing it occurred to me to do (as a non American and non military)? Occupy Forts Benning and Stewart, currently occupied by a CivGov loyal unit (108th). I’m thinking to myself that if the 108th knew that the Big Red One is on its way to boot them off their turf, they might just decide to join MilGov, adding another Division. From there, control of Georgia should be guarenteed. Florida would be next. After that, start moving North and West. Link up with the forces in Texas - and if the 194th could be freed from their current role to move to Texas with their tanks....adios, Mexico..... BTW, I love the idea of Divison Cuba bartering for safe passage out of the US in exchange for their heavy gear - sounds perfectly feasible to me. (All of the above might make no sense to anyone with military experince, so feel free to say....) Sorry if this has gone on a bit...just more random thoughts.... (There's still plenty more, the lot posted now is about half of the archive. I'll leave off posting more just yet to allow this lot to be digested - Cheers, Kevin) ***************** ReHerakhte Continuation... Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega / Returning troops Posted by: Cav Scout Date: 07/31/2002 18:40 >>So, spend the winter reconstituing, merging the smaller units, requiiping as best as they can, and come the Spring you have two fair sized Corps, - more back of envelope calculations give me somewhere in the region of nine Divisions, average strength 3000 - mostly leg infantry (the Marines have a couple of M60’s, LA25’s and AAVP’s). And there was a CH47 with TF34.<< If reorganizing, I think they might opt to call a brigade a brigade and whatnot, but the numbers sound about right. For those who do not wish to remain in active service, perhaps MilGov offers them something to the effect of 40 acres and a mule, plus a commission in the local militia. "Military colonies" made up of combat veterans turned farmers and craftsmen could help hold down the countryside, even in places where New America sympathizers are active. >>Now, what was the first thing it occurred to me to do (as a non American and non military)? Occupy Forts Benning and Stewart, currently occupied by a CivGov loyal unit (108th).<< In the south-east USA, I’d add Anniston Army Depot to the prize list, if it hasn’t been completely looted by 2000 (and most of its "prize" content would be things like spare parts for tracked vehicles, refurbishable AFV hulls, heavy weapons ammunition, etc.). Benning being in the hands of CivGov has always struck me as questionable -- on Thanksgiving Day ’97 it would have been host to over a brigade of regular army training units, plus whatever the 108th had there (if anything -- the only post I know they had a mobilization role at is Jackson). That brigade or so would include such presumably staunchly pro-MilGov types as the Airborne School cadre and 4th Battalion of the Ranger Training Brigade, and I have a hard time imagining them joining up with the 108th/CivGov. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Webstral Date: 08/01/2002 02:20 The ratio of farmers to non-farmers in Twilight: 2000 is, I think, THE question. I have been trying to work this out for Sonora Oasis. Someone (I don’t remember who) mentioned that in medieval society, 80-90% of the population worked in agriculture. In some regions of the US, this figure will apply. The successful cantonments will be the ones ways to drive this number down. There will be lots of variables—more than I can name in the few minutes I want to take before going to bed. Included, however, will be how much the local populace knows about farming, what the health of the farmers is like, what the nutritional balance of the local diet is like, whether what people are trying to grow is suited to the locale, and in the American West whether there is enough water. The water issue is all-important in the American Southwest. I think the Southwest suffers a disproportionate share of the depopulation in 1998. Having the Mexicans roll through doesn’t help, though hopefully they’re not stupid enough to burn the crops in the field and wreck the irrigation system. The target I’m shooting for is having the Sonora Oasis work its farming and food-gathering population down to 40%. This frees the other sixty percent for industry and other economics, construction, administration, and soldiering. Webstral ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Ben Date: 08/01/2002 04:05 I was thinking about the number of people needed to feed themselves. A population of 500,000. Remember not all would be able bodied workers. As a rough guide say 8% would be aged 65+ and 15% aged 0-14. These numbers are lower than they would be (the 65+ pop would be about 12-13% and the 0-14 pop about 20-21%). Due to the conditions disease, weather, social conditions etc the young and old would suffer the most. So of the half million population. 40000 would be 65+ 150,000 0-14 years 310,000 14-65 years As to feeding themselves. They have a workforce of 310,000 people. Of which at least 80% would be involved in labour intensive farming (I rate at 80% given better farming techniques than a medieval society and use of machinery to a limited extent. Still it would not be an easy task based on land quality, water, suitable crops etc). So 248,000 thousand people work on the land. Leaving 62,000 other people for other area’s. Such as services (store owners, barbers, doctors, mechanics). These would also include coal miners, road workers or anyone else not directly involved in food production. As to a full time military force. People devoted to nothing else other than fighting or law enforcement. As a rough guide say 5% (much higher than the normal ratio of about 1%) of the 62,000. Some 3100 people. Which might not sound very high but then Luxemburg Pop 400,000 has a full time military of only 800 (but then does not have marauders running around or any real external threats). Of course a milita would be available. Say half of the able bodied population (including women of course). Some 155,000 people for defense. Full time military forces are expensive and are only viable so long as a people make a surplus or use machines to save on labour. Feeding ones self and family is a full time occupation. As already stated only about 2% of the current population are food producers. In Australia we have more hairdressers than coal miners (or in the US more lawyers than farmers?). Ben ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Nick Butta Date: 08/01/2002 04:41 I have a question about the widely quoted 80-90% figure. Did this many people work in agriculture because a. it was the only way they could survive. or b. it was the only work available. If people are forced to work in agriculture because they are all needed to feed themselves fine - the 80-90% figure applies to out scenario. If it is the only work available then there is an entirely different situation. The number of people who would have been doing different things in the middle ages might have been > 80-90% if they had had alternatives. Considering this I think that rather than looking at the middle ages we should consider the early-mid industrial revolution i.e. 1850-1900. This would incorporate advances in technique but not petroleum requiring machinery etc. Webstral is right in saying that the surplus labor available will be the factor that dictates the success of a settlement. (along with resource available, skill set and organisation). So the next question is: given 100,00 workers what do you do with them?? My emphasis would probably be on the process of developing increasingly advanced industry plus production of trade goods for trading with other regions. Basic industry must include things like materials/textiles (for clothing), coal, roads repair(for transportation), basic metals, wood (furniture etc), building supplies. Thats about the only low tech industry I can think of right now. Oh, and ammunition and mortars. If you can produce items valuable enough to ship to north africa, aruba (mentioned in GttSM) or Iran - you can have oil- which is good - but I can’t think of what such things might be. BTW - whoever had the idea of 40 acres and a mule for veterans had a good one (if you can feed a family on 40 acres ??). ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Cav Scout Date: 08/01/2002 06:02 >>I have a question about the widely quoted 80-90% figure. Did this many people work in agriculture because a. it was the only way they could survive. or b. it was the only work available.<< I think it was generally the former, with societies having a limited ability to generate a food surplus (and when technology improved things, population boomed). OTOH, that was with all parts of the equation (i.e. technology, economic models, social organization, etc.) being archaic by our standards. I suspect that a group of T2K survivors with a decent brain trust would be able to do better with the same resources (barring marauders, drought, blight, etc etc). As you noted, a more recent model for agricultural productivity may be a better one, at least for well organized groups like MilGov in Colorado and CivGov’s pre-Drought Nebraska enclave (I agree with whoever didn’t like the whole Drought storyline, FWIW). >>BTW - whoever had the idea of 40 acres and a mule for veterans had a good one (if you can feed a family on 40 acres ??).<< From that website I posted the URL for a couple days ago, they claimed the ideal family farm size during the Middle Ages in England was 24-30 acres. A family of four could survive on as little as five acres, though this left very little margin for bad weather or other problems (you can go even smaller, land-wise, once the potato gets into circulation). A forty acre farm, coupled with 19th century technology, draft animals (or surviving machinery), and a working knowledge of agriculture should produce a comfortable living for several people (by T2K standards) with a surplus. The trick is getting all of the above assembled, and keeping the less fortunate from killing them for what they have. Some additional numbers: 500 liters of grain needed to feed one adult for one year ("at a very basic level") One acre of wheat (medieval technology). You plant 72 liters of seed, get 250-300 liters of grain. Barley was 144 liters in, 700-720 liters of yield. Oats 108 liters in, 360-400 liters out. Peas were 108 liters in, 300-340 liters out. (The rough average is four liters of food generated per liter of seed. During the 18th century technology improved the ratio from 4:1 to 10:1. In the 20th century it has increased to 20:1.) T2K survivors would have access to various crops unknown or in limited use in medieval Europe which in and of themselves alter the equation (i.e. corn, potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, peanuts, not to mention dietary protein from fish farming, etc etc.). Unfortunately, I haven’t found "liter in, liter out" numbers for other crops yet. ________________________________________ Subject: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/01/2002 12:01 Very good. I have used "Principles of Field Crop Production" 1949 copyright by Martin and Leonard (Macmillan) as my references. Many of the figures given in the book are much more in line with what can be expected as production levels on the average after the mushrooms. Depending on the area, there will, could, be persons who know how to farm ’the old way’. This way has been ’trained’ out of todays farmers however. Today they are high input operations, most based on petrochemicals.. fuel, fertilizer, pesticides.. all require oil in one form or another. The other critical factor often overlooked is not the availability of seed, but the type of seed. Hybred seed gives the high yields but only for one year, and only if they are fertilized profusely and the weeds, etc are controlled, ususally with chemicals. First year after the attack, hybred seed will probably be available, as well as some fertilizers, and chemical pesticides, but fuels are limited also, so smaller operations.. probablility of successful crop IMO fair, but probably shortfalls.. and distribution problems.. also the fallout problems!! MOST of the breadbasket lies in the fallout zones of the Dakota Deadlands (which are really North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, eastern Wyoming, Southwestern Nebraska). The Omaha strike will effect Iowa and Illinois Im sure and Whitman strikes will cause havoc in the south central.. Result is starvation.. NOW the cux of what we started talking about.. seed. The hybred seed cannot be saved from the exisitng plant to be used the next year.. atleast not very sucessfully.. so any yeilds the next year are less.. alot less in most cases.. I forsee CORN as being a luxury item in the future, NOT a staple, unless you get some open pollinated seed.. Yes there are some available, it’s just not popular, and there fore scarce (worth more than it’s weight in gold!! IMO) Most of the vegetables (tomatoes, peppers, etc..) fall into the same catagory.. most are hybreds. Other grains (wheat, oat, barley) would fare better. They require less inputs, and fare better in dryer conditions. Yields: crop yields (pounds per acre) years of data 1937-46 CORN 1638# + WHEAT 966# "only Louisiana, Florida, and five of the six New england states are not counted amoung wheat-producing states" RYE 580# BARLEY 1152# OAT 1036# RICE 2800# * SOYBEANS 1120# + COWPEAS 320# FIELD BEANS 900# PEANUTS 700# + FIELD PEA 1200# POTATO 8200# ** SWEET POTATO 5280# ** + ARE USUSALLY HYBRED SEEDS. * Rice is a labor intensive operation, not really conducive to small plot operations in the US. It was a ’slave’ operated crop prior to mechanization, as was cotton. ** Potato and sweet potato require cuttings or tubers to continue propagation, therefore they might be scarce across the country with isolated areas of good production found.. where seed is available it would be expensive. (to be continued) ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega/food production (part 2) Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/01/2002 12:31 Production of the food needed to support a family of four is NOT very much land. IF you follow the guidelines of the ’basic four’ the LDS use as the base storage for preparedness, 360# of grains(wheat), 60# dried milk, 60# sugar, 5 # salt. MOST of the caloric intake is sugar and starch (duhh). Can a family raise this.. (well not the salt but..) one acre wheat yeilded ca 960 # minus seed requirement of 90# per acre, nets 870 pounds of feed. TWO acres gives surplus for another mouth plus a bit (say a few chickens). Or you bnarter for some dairy from the neighbor with the cow that produces more than they need. vegetable production from my sources varies greatly with type of system used, and crops produced, with root crops yeilding much more than others, but if we look at the field bean/field pea and substitute it for dairy product you get 900 pounds of beans per acre minus seed stock requirement of 100 pounds netting 800 pounds per acre. Surplus for the family on 1/2 acre of beans is 160 pounds, enough for almost three mouths. Just the two basics (you dont need the sugar) on two acres has supplied a family of four, and surplus for 1-3 more people. Labor intensive? Not as bad as you think with the type of crop were talking about.. wheat is a pretty competatvie crop, and simple irrigation of one-two acres will greatly improve the yields. banded for walk room, you hand weed the fields, yielding inmost cases edible greens for the table. Guarenteed success.. NO.. with minimal help from outside.. yes.. There are numerous variables not discussed... but that would be up to the HOG... ever see what hail does to a crop ready to harvest? I have and it’s a gut wrenching site.. I can only imagine how it would be if your life directly depended on the crop. Drought.. well you might still be lucky and get your seed back and a bit more. Probably not enough on two acres to make it through the winter though. Questions on agricultural production I will try to answer..... it’s my background and what I got my degree in, but I have always been interested in the ’old way’, so have researched it a bit, just dont have my source books at hand <sigh> (A lengthy section on uses for corn follows, the conjecture being that corn is incredibly useful so probably would form an important part of agriculture but not as food except as a luxury item - Cheers, Kevin) ***************** ReHerakhte ________________________________________ Subject: Uses for Corn part Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/01/2002 13:02 "I forsee CORN as being a luxury item in the future, NOT a staple, unless you get some open pollinated seed.. Yes there are some available, it’s just not popular, and there fore scarce (worth more than it’s weight in gold!! IMO)" Corn as a luxury item? I don’t think so. Corn has far more utility than wheat. Here’s a few uses outside of food. http://agebb.missouri.edu/mass/indepth/corn/uses.htm Here’s a web site that lists the many products that corn is used for. CORN USES Primary products • Starches • Syrups • Dextrose Co-Products • Solubles • Gluten and Hulls • Germ Source: "1998 The World of Corn." National Corn Growers Association. St. Louis, Missouri. 24 May 1999. Starches CORNSTARCH: Industrial Uses • Abrasive paper and cloth • Adhesives (glues, gums, etc.) • Batteries • Binder or binding agents • Board (corrugating, cardboard, etc.) • Briquettes • Ceramics (as clay binder) • Cleaners, detergents • Coatings on wood, metal and paper • Color carrier (in paper and textiles) • Cork Products • Crayon and chalk (as a binder) • Dressing, surgical • Dyes • Fireworks • Insecticide powders • Insulating materials (glass, wool, rock) • Lubricating agents • Oilcloth • Oil-well drilling • Ore refining • Paints (cleaning compounds, cold water and latex paints, poster lacquers) • Paper and paper products • Plastics (molded) • Plywood • Tires, rubber Food, Drug or Cosmetic Uses • Antibiotics • Aspirin • Baby Foods • Bakery products (bread, rolls, cakes, pies, crackers and cookies) • Baking powder • Beverages, brewed (beer, ale, etc.) • Chewing gum • Chocolate drink • Confectionery • Cosmetics • Desserts (puddings, custards, etc.) • Drugs and pharmaceuticals • Flours, prepared • Food and drug coatings • Gravies and sauces • Meat products • Mixes, prepared (pancake, waffle, cake, candy) • Mustard, prepared • Pie filling • Precooked frozen pizzas • Salad dressing • Soaps and cleaners • Soups • Sugar, powdered • Vegetables, canned DEXTRINS: Industrial Uses • Bookbinding • Briquettes • Candles • Cord polishing • Core binder (castings, molds, etc.) • Cork products • Dyes (dry, cake, etc.) • Envelopes • Fireworks • Inks, printing • Insulation, fiberglass • Labels • Leather • Linoleum • Magazines • Matches (on head and side of box) • Ore separation • Paints (cold-water, poster, etc.) • Sandpaper • Shoes (counter pastes, polish, etc.) • Silvering compounds • Soaps • Straws (drinking) • Textiles, sizing, finishing and printing • Twine (cord, string, etc.) • Wallboard and wallpaper • Window shades and shade cloth Syrups CORN SYRUP: Industrial Uses • Chemicals • Dyes and inks • Explosives • Leather tanning (chrome process) • Metal plating • Paper, glassine and parchment • Plasticizer • Polish, shoe • Rayon (viscose process) • Theatrical makeup • Tobacco and tobacco products Food, Drug Uses; Liquid or Dried Form • Baby Foods • Bakery products • Beverages, brewed and carbonated • Breakfast foods • Catsup, chili sauce, tomato sauce • Cereals, prepared • Cheese spreads and foods • Chewing gum • Chocolate products • Coffee whiteners • Condensed milk, sweetened • Confectionery • Cordials and liqueurs • Desserts • Eggs, frozen or dried • Extracts and flavors • Frostings and icings • Fruit butters and juices • Fruits (canned, candied, fillings, frozen) • Ice cream, water ices and sherbets • Jams, jellies, marmalades and preserves • Licorice • Malted products • Marshmallows and related products • Medicinal preparations (drugs, pharmaceuticals) • Peanut butter • Pickles and pickle products • Salad dressing • Sauces (seasoning, specialty, etc.) • Seafood, frozen • Soups, dehydrated • Syrups (table, chocolate, cocoa, fruit, medicinal, soda fountain, cordials, etc.) HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP: Food Uses • Canned fruits and juices • Condiments, jams, jellies and preserves • Frozen desserts • Soft drinks • Wine • Yeast MALTODEXTRINS: Food Uses • Bakery mixes • Beverage powders • Condiments • Dehydrated foods • Dry soup mixes • Gum confections • Icings and glazes • Instant teas • Instant breakfast foods • Low calorie sweeteners • Marshmallows • Nougats • Pan coatings • Sauce and gravy mixes • Snack foods Dextrose DEXTROSE: Industrial Uses • Acids, commercial (lactic, acetic, gluconic, etc.) • Adhesives • Amino acids • Chemicals (calcium, lactate, etc.) • Citric • Dyes • Electroplating and galvanizing • Enzymes • Lactic acid polymers • Leather tanning • Lysine • Mannitol • Sizing materials • Sorbitol • Threonime • Tryptophan Food, Drug Uses • Antibiotics • Baby foods • Berries, canned and frozen • Caramel color • Cheese foods and spread • Citric acid • Citrus juices • Coloring, pure food mix • Condensed milk • Confectionery • Cordials, liqueurs and brandy • Cream, frozen • Dairy products • Desserts • Dietetic preparations • Distillation products • Doughnuts (cake, yeast) • Drugs (fermentation process) • Eggs, frozen or dried • Fish, pickled • Flavoring extracts • Food acids (citric, etc.) • Fruit juices • Fruits and vegetables (canned) • Fruits (candied, glace, frozen) • Gelatin desserts • Ice cream, water ices, sherbets • Infant and invalid feeding • Jams, jellies, marmalades and preserves • Meat products (bacon, bologna, hams, sausage, frankfurters, mincemeat) • Medicinal preparations and intravenous (injections, pills, tablets, drugs, etc.) • Peanut butter • Peas, canned • Pectin, fruit • Pickles and pickle products • Powders (pudding, summer drinks) • Sauces (catsup, tomato, etc.) • Seasoning mixes, dry • Sorbitol (in candies, toothpaste, etc.) • Soups, dehydrated • Spices and mustard preparations • Vinegar • Wine • Xanthan gums HYDROL: Corn-Sugar Molasses • Leather tanning • Livestock feed • Organic acids • Organic solvents • Tobacco ETHANOL: • Alcoholic beverages • Industrial alcohol • Octane enhancer • Oxygenate in motor fuels PERSONAL CARE PRODUCTS: • Mouthwash • Toothpaste Solubles STEEPWATER: • Antibiotics • Chemicals • Pharmaceuticals • Yeast Gluten and Hulls STEEPWATER for Feed, Gluten Feed and Meal, Oil Meal: • Amino acids • Corn germ meal • Corn gluten feed and meal • Corn sugar (crude and refined) • Fur cleaner • Hydrol • Zein and other protein products Germ CORN OIL: • Carriers for vitamins and other medicinal preparations in capsule form • Cooking oil • Margarine • Mayonnaise • Potato chips • Rust preventative • Soap ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/01/2002 13:24 Funny, I’ve lived in every part of Nebraska and we all thought the best growing soil was in eastern Nebraska, Western Iowa, Southeastern South Dakota and Northeastern Kansas. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Uses for Corn part Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/01/2002 13:29 I may have misused the term luxury.. yes CORN has more utility, but unless you have an open pollinated variety, you will not have corn for long, therefor it becomes a scarce commodity.. humm maybe that would have been a better choice of word.. Im not here ot flame, but to exchange ideas ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/01/2002 13:34 as well they are, but Illinois will argue with you.. but not me I was not from corn country (NODAK) I think what I refered to was the fallout zones.. prevailing winds will contaminate or have the potential to contaminate a vast section of the select cropland of the region, with winds being westerly, and northwesterly.. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Uses for Corn part Posted by: Dawg Date: 08/01/2002 13:36 Actually, the highest yield soil in the world is in Champaign county, Illinois at least according to one of my professors (it was a physics class on energy). IIRC correctly, the average acre of land in the world can produce 20 bushels of corn while in Champaign county with modern farming techniques they could produce 200 bushels an acre. (Of course, I could be slightly off on the figures, it was many years ago) And I have no idea what the conversion from imperial bushels to metric liters is. And correct me if I am wrong, but about 95% of corn is grown to feed cattle and pigs which are in turn used for food, right? Not necessarily the most efficient method from an energy use standpoint if my memory serves. One of my friends always thought all that corn in the fields was the stuff you see in the grocery store over July the 4th weekend Dawg ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: Uses for Corn part Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/01/2002 13:40 Dawg, I meant in my particular area (Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota, Kansas). Didn’t mean the whole US. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/01/2002 13:43 Maybe I’m wrong here, but I thought only Minot, Grand Forks were hit in the Dakotas. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/01/2002 13:56 I don’t know much about the radiological factors I’ll leave that to other experts. You are leaving out a lot of other factors to consider. Supply and demand for one. If corn would be as rare you think it is, more people will try to grow because it will be worth more. Yes, corn yields will be down but you’ve seem to forget that so is the population that the corn crop has to feed. You don’t have to feed 250 million with, just a few million people in selected areas. Also I have to believe there are more seeds lying around than just for one growing season. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: Cav Scout Date: 08/01/2002 14:47 >>Supply and demand for one. If corn would be as rare you think it is, more people will try to grow because it will be worth more.<< Doesn’t that premise sort of depend on the notion of a functioning market economy driving production? I don’t know if this would hold up in most parts of the T2K world, where you have a barter economy, very small surpluses of food and other production (in my opinion), and trade is sporadic, potentially dangerous, and dependent on fuel or animal power that could otherwise be used on a myriad of equally vital tasks. >>Also I have to believe there are more seeds lying around than just for one growing season.<< I think the problem here is that outside the areas still under CivGov or MilGov control (and the occasionally well organized independent militia or city state), the die-off would, by definition, be chaotic and characterized by people making less than prudent and rational decisions concerning the preservation of edible materials like seeds. Those people who might be best able to utilize open-pollinating corn (or other seed grain, etc.) are going to be a minority among the rest of us in such a scenario who are hungry and whose knowledge of agriculture isn’t much more than some dim memories of how the Indians saved the Pilgrims from starving by planting corn with fish-head fertillizer. Some places you might get ready made labor married up to the knowledge to keep people alive, but in many places you get confrontation between small numbers of local farmers or other people with subsistence skills versus the unwashed hordes of the service industry with no ability to feed themselves except via theft and mob violence (i.e. Allegheny Uprising, which describes the former situation degenerating into the latter as the government keeps dumping people on the local rural economy). By 2000 the "human locust" phenomenon has probably played itself out most places (+/- the Drought), but I’ve always assumed some pretty significant damage was done to both availability of resources as well as the agricultural brain trust before things levelled out (hence Howling Wilderness’ notation that in many areas food production is back to a medieval level). Just my opinions, in any case. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production (part 2) Posted by: Webstral Date: 08/01/2002 15:08 Graebarde, Great stuff! You may just be the man I’ve been looking for. I’ve done some research on semi-arid agriculture, but I have no real first-hand experience. I may just take you up on your offer in the near future. Webstral ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/01/2002 15:15 "I think the problem here is that outside the areas still under CivGov or MilGov control" I thought we were talking about the Civgov/Milgov controlled areas. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/01/2002 22:23 by canon I think your right, but do you really beleive Ivan would let 300+ missles lie in the silos? ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega/food production Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/01/2002 22:29 I agree with you there... the problem is going to be distribution. The seed needs to get to the farmer. Most I know usually wait till spring to get their hybreds from the suppler. They ususally are shipped from the seed companies around the first of the year IIRC. Now to find a ’cache’ of seed would be a god send for sure. A thing to remember is the seed corn will probably not be edible as they treat the seed with insecticide and fungicides, so if the seed is colored.. beware.. it will germinate though if it has not been damaged by heat over a long period. Of course a reduced yield is better than no yield. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/02/2002 19:09 This might be an ’dumb’ question, but where does Operation Omega come from? Is it canon? If so which module? plz without me looking through them all tell me. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: Cav Scout Date: 08/02/2002 19:11 Going Home ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: RE: Operation Omega Posted by: graebarde Date: 08/03/2002 00:03 TY ________________________________________ END (This is the end of the main thread, the second thread deals with rural folk particularly farmers - Cheers, Kevin)
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ReHerakhte Subject: country boy will survive, (scary isnt it?) Posted by: blckrider Date: 08/02/2002 23:56 i grew up in the hills of kentucky, i consider myself a hillbilly and am proud of it( not redneck but hillbilly) the soil there isnt the best, the only farms that even come close to showing a profit are the tobacco farms. i have heard quit a bit on stastics and how we need the hybrid corns to survive in farming... one thing you dont consider... the hill people, have been running family farms for over a century, the know how to grow small crops... harvest and culitvate the land better then most, specially with poor yeilds. i always felt that these are the people that are going to survive the longest and be better off then most... the plains states are easy targets for marrauders and the plague of "human locust" the applachian mountains form a natural barrier for most of them, and they also wouldnt consider that as being the plavce to go to survive. you also have to remember they are alot better armed then most of your average citizens, (i myself was taught to shoot when i was 5,) guns dont have the stigma there that they do elsewhere in the US. (i group of men are going into your feilds and taking the food from YOUR family’s table... guess what happens next also a good number of the ppl there are vetrans, (veitnam and so forth..) in my graduating class from high school i would guess that at least 40% join one armed force or another. i have a copy of HW and it shows that the NA have a cell on the cumberland gap area, and one of the CivGov units moving west is heavily engaged fighting them there. the NA would have a easy time either... the locals dont take well to having ppl come on and telling them what to do and what they have to give them...(any one see adventure plots in this?) back to the seed corn topic... alot of the OLD time farmers disliked using the hybrid seeds, they never really trusted it, more then a few of those old men that i new of saved and used older seeds. also... alot of those old "quaint" barns you see driving thru on the interstate have old fashion mule pule plows inside them... want to guess after the nukes that they got back into use? scary isnt it thinking the ones that have the best chance to survive at the hillbillies and rednecks isnt it? lol ________________________________________ Subject: RE: country boy will survive, (scary isnt it?) Posted by: Alexander Date: 08/03/2002 10:36 Sure they would. I live in california now and have since I was 13 but I know when I was in Wisconsin, those country people would find it easy to survive. Most Farms have at least 4 or 5 rifles and shotguns and lots of machines as well as full garages to overhaul large engines and equipment. Not to mention their own well, cellar, and sewer systems. I dont think even a twilight 2000 charecter would feel safe in any deep woods with experienced deerhunters looking for them. Most boys start seriously hunting at 10. As far as corn, my sister is a soil scientist, but, ya, hybrid corn is all they use and have used on commercial farms (one family all the way up to a million acres) for 20 years. My family farms 2500 acres of corn down in southern illinois (dude mentioned how its the best soil in the world in alower thread) and I am sure all their corn in hybrid. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: country boy will survive, (scary isnt it?) Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/03/2002 11:05 Another thing they tend to overlook is that farmers/ranchers (in my area at least) have lived on those farms for generations. Though they may live miles away from each other the farmers/ranchers they all know their neighbors and tend to watch out for each other. My grandpa’s ranch in South Dakota had an old mule plow (It’s now a lawn ornament at my Dad’s house). My Dad (age 60)has told me stories about how they used to use that plow, so it’s not like there aren’t people around who’d know how to use it. ________________________________________ Subject: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject) Posted by: TR Date: 08/03/2002 11:24 Country folk do generally watch out for each other, something that no one has mentioned is that generally their into canning a lot more than most other people. You can go into most country farm houses and see Ball Mason jars and all the accessories, not to mention perserves and so forth. Of course they have firearms, they have to do a fair ammount of pest control, keeping the rats out of everything and of course hunting rabbits and other small game. Of course I can think of plenty of farmer’s who had deer rifle’s to go after bigger game once hunting season began (or in between seasons sometimes). And of course they generally have features that go back decades. I can think of lots of farm houses I’ve been in and seen (I grew up in Indiana) with water pumps, kerosene heaters, gasoline storage drums for their tractors and so forth. So you could have a farmer with a small reserve of gasoline who is selling small quantities of it to obtain anything else they need. The downside for them of course is that despite having neighbors close by who they have known all their lives human nature is still a pain. You would have some neighbors become complete isolationists and not help anyone (they can’t afford to use what they got on someone else ya know). You would have others who would hoard whatever it is they have, if they help you it will be with strings attached. And of course anyone from outside the area with military grade small arms will be able to control the small farms. A 30-30 Winchester is one thing, but a 40mm grenade launcher is firepower! Some things not even they can deal with, that’s why the need would exsist militia’s and or sherrif’s groups who could be called on to provide support to the local’s. So yes, country folk are going to be better prepared but their not invulnerable... that’s what made Twilight such a fun game... nobody could exsist totally on their own (unless you had a cache of supplies, a secret underground fall out shelter or your own cult). Until Later TR ________________________________________ Subject: Farm Justice Posted by: Buford Date: 08/03/2002 13:26 Let me tell you a story. I grew up in Ohio, and this farmer told me him and his brother were doing some fencing on Autumn during hunting season. They were about 25, and their uncle was with them. Well, they heard one of their sheep making a lot of noise some few hundred yards out. So they went to investigate, and bieng deer season, they had a 30-30 with them because they were liscenced, and if they saw a buck, they would drop it. Turns out, in a culvert, they came across 2 trespassing hunters from the city. They were fucking this sheep, one holding it down, one banging away!!! Well, the uncle, bieng an animal lover shot one of em in the back of the leg. The other one went for his rifle, withdrawing in haste, and the Uncle shot him too!! He finished the other in the head (this was in the 60’s) and they buried them in the hollow. I guess they never told anyone and although the two men were listed as missing, the crime was never uncovered. I guess that’s farm justice. I looked thru the archives at the local paper and found out, sure enough, two hunters from Cincinnati were missing in that time frame. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject) Posted by: Brian S. Date: 08/03/2002 16:51 "You would have some neighbors become complete isolationists and not help anyone." That reminds me TR, when I was living in South Central Nebraska a few years back, there was this farmer who lived across the border in Kansas his farm had no electricity or running water, and you had to be careful how you approached the farm, because he was out watching for revenuers coming for his moonshine. "And of course anyone from outside the area with military grade small arms will be able to control the small farms. A 30-30 Winchester is one thing, but a 40mm grenade launcher is firepower! Some things not even they can deal with, that’s why the need would exsist militia’s and or sherrif’s groups who could be called on to provide support to the local’s." Some farmers do have military grade weapons, I knew a rancher (who has since died) that had an SKS that he’d hunt coyotes with. I’m not trying to say that all or most would have military grade weapons because I have no idea how many that would be as a percentage but it would not be out of the realm of possiblilies. I was also thinking of militias to protect the farms too. Also any body with vastly overwhelming numbers will be able to overwhelm small farms as well. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: RE: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject) Posted by: King Chaos Date: 08/03/2002 19:05 I grew up in Southwest Iowa and I would say that most farms have at least four weapons per family member and that isn’t including hand guns. I don’t know if the area that I grew up in is the norm, but about a thrid of the weapons were of military grade. There even was one crazy farmer who had a M60. One thing to think about is most of thoes wind mills you see in the fields, you know they are made of wood and loks like they are bad antiques, they work and they are doing two things at once. Pumping water and runing a generator. First they are pumping water from the wells that all farms have. They may have rual water but for the most part farmers have a back up plan. Most of these windmills are also hooked up to a generator and a storage battrey. The wind always blows at least a little. The farm I worked for we had six of these windmills. We had enought juice to power most all the equipment and sell some back to the utility co. We would run a negitive when we had to dry the crop. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject) Posted by: TR Date: 08/03/2002 22:59 Definately some points most people have forgotten when it come to windmills. I used to see them on farms, though some were rusted and not in use. I could see whole restoration projects being created to restore them once again in a community. Well water, that’s the way of life for farms in that their not tapping into some city water supply, while this can mean your having a source of water... it can be bad if the water gets contaminated or the well runs dry. Digging a new well is not an easy process by any stretch of the imagination. When I said mentioned firearms you will generally run into semi-automatic sporters and such. AR-15’s, FN-FAL’s, H&K G-3’s, M-1 Carbine’s, SKS rifles, and so forth are common sellers. But try that up against a group armed with selective fire M-16’s, M-60 machineguns and 40mm grenade launchers and their seriously outclassed. Against common punks they can hold their own as long as the numbers aren’t too numerous. You can bet EVERYONE in the households in Twilight would know how to fire a gun in the rural settings. So those old jokes about the farmer’s daughter become a lot less funny when she has a 30-06 Springfield pointed in your general direction. :-) I always envisioned MILGOV and CIVGOV as sending agriculutral advisors into the field... not only to assist the locals but also so they can learn as well... and the lessons they learn I could see being passed along the chain of command. Everyone know’s the local population would be called upon as local scouts of the area when the governments send in their troops and advisors. So there’s more than one way a simple country boy might make ties with powerfull allies... Until Later T.R. ________________________________________ Subject: country boys & firepower Posted by: Fred the obvious pseudonym Date: 08/04/2002 20:36 You could have some really interesting political/personal dynamics in rural America. Let’s take a scenario: 1.) Big time boss moves in with mercenaries to control the farms. He’d have to have someone on his staff who knows "rustic" agriculture or he’ll be lied to blind by the locals. "Hell, sir, all we can get is three bushels the acre." Farmers can go the "seven samurai" route or appeal to any other "big time boss" who’s nearby for aid. 2.) Yes, the M-60s and bloop guns are major firepower -- but don’t underestimate having locals who know the terrain. IIRC you get a lot more veterans in the rural areas per capita than in the cities -- so old Uncle Fred might well know how to use that GPMG or bloop gun the young’uns have "liberated" from the ambushed patrol. Playing counter-guerrilla ain’t going to be much fun -- especially if you have to keep at least some, probably most, of the locals happy and producing or your whole effort goes for nothing. Rural Illinois is about 30,000 square miles. South Vietnam was about 60-70,000 square miles. How many guys did we have in SVN fighting guerrillas during that unpleasantness? Good luck. ________________________________________ Subject: Southern Comfort Posted by: Alexander Date: 08/04/2002 22:24 Ever see the moview "Southern Comfort?" That moview portrayed a group of weekend warriors lost in the Bayou and getting massacred by one or two bayou dwellers. They finally Evac’ed out in the end when a few of their boys got shotgunned in the little town. I think that movied gives you a little taste of what would be in store for marauders. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Southern Comfort Posted by: Snake Eyes Date: 08/05/2002 00:26 That movie is one of my all time favorites for Twilight: 2000 inspiration. If not for illustrating the havoc that a couple of slack-jawed yokels with deer rifles & shotguns can wreak on a trespassing modern military unit, then for the scene where the guardsmen are set upon by a pack of wild dogs. And the Ry Cooder soundtrack pretty much kicks ass, too. A true American classic. ~ Snake Eyes ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Farmers and their gear... longish Posted by: ReHerakhte Date: 08/05/2002 08:52 As some extra food for thought, I always found it amazing what some farmers were capable of doing and collecting. For example, the former QuarterMaster at my old Army Reserve unit, was the manager of a local sheep station (in the US you’d call it a ranch), while clearing some overgrown access tracks that hadn’t been used in years, he found an abandoned Main Roads Department bulldozer, thing was about 20yrs old but after some hard work and a bit of scrounging, he got it running again. He also applied for a pistol licence for use on the property (in Western Australia, private pistol ownership is strictly for use in pistol clubs), his arguement being that as he spent a lot of time rounding up sheep on a motorbike, a rifle was too unweildy and therefore dangerous. He was allowed to have the pistol, so he chose a ’cap & ball’ blackpowder repro just cos he liked blackpowder weapons. He told me that if worse came to worst, he knew where to get the stuff he needed to make blackpowder and caps, without having to buy it from a ’proper’ gunstore. And like a lot of Australian farms, there was a good collection of old cars and farm machinery that was still in some sort of useful order. There’s an old ’war story’ about a farmer who lived up north who had pillaged a stack of aircraft parts from RAAF planes that were junked out bush after WW2. Apparently, he sold the bits and pieces over the years to warbirds collectors for a bit of extra money when he needed it. Also, at one stage after WW2, a lot of farmers where able to buy surplus military vehicles very cheap. Not just trucks and jeeps and so on, but also de-militarized tanks, these were usually converted by having all weapons and turrets completely removed and things like bulldozer blades crudely welded to the front and towing hitches replaced on the back (for use with farm equipment). Here in Australia there were Universal Carriers, Shermans, Grant and Stuart tanks converted like this, amongst others. No big deal really except that many farmers had some of this gear ’tucked away’ after buying newer equipment just in case they should ever need it. Some of these items ended up being located by military vehicle enthusiast for restoration even up till the late 1990s. There have also been cases in the past were some older farmers have been charged with illegal possession of weapons, generally stuff from WW2 like SMGs or grenades. A noteable case here in Western Australia about 20 years ago involved one old-timer who had kept a fully working .303 Bren Gun from his time in the army during WW2, he had a licence to own a .303 SMLE rifle so ammo was not a problem. It’s now on display at the Firearms Section of the Western Australian Police Academy. So I suppose it really wouldn’t be too unusual to have a farmer pull out some strange gear every now and then. Cheers, Kevin. ________________________________________ Subject: RE: Farmers & odd gear. Posted by: Pyro Date: 08/05/2002 11:24 This thread and other recent threads have been quite interesting. I live in a farming/ranching/mining area where I’m pretty sure that the farm animals outnumber the humans something on the order 10:1. This includes horses, cows, chickens, pigs, sheep,llamas and other exotics. As far as military grade weapons are concerned there may not be a lot of fully automatic weapons around or grenade launchers, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t explosives available. I’m on our volunteer fire department, often we are called upon to go out to some farm and dispose of 20 sticks (or case or two or ten etc.) of dynamite (anfo, etc.) that grandpa forgot about and his grandkids just found. God alone knows how many of the farmers in the area have their own personal stashes of explosives. Then there is the ever popular activity of going out "plinking" at 500m. A lot of the farmers I know have an incredible knowledge base, they are always having to fix things, and often they end up making the parts themselvers. I know one guy who drills water wells for a living. He has one of the most incredible shops I’ve seen. He can make almost any part he needs if he has the metal stock on hand. Pyro out. ________________________________________ Subject: Modern farming Posted by: Levi Date: 08/13/2002 05:40 With farming and ranching there would be problems to consider because of a lack of modern technology. For instance, corn is the most widely planted cereal crop. Humans eat it and it is the cheapest thing to feed livestock. However, cattle are not conditioned to eat corn and it causes digestive problems. This results in the owner having to pump his cattle full of antibiotics. A bit of a problem for anyone in the T2K world. Another problem is again with corn. It takes a lot of nitrogen out of the soil. Farmers use large amounts of nitrogen sulphate fertilizer to replenish the soil. This fertilizer is made from natural gas. And corn also has to be protected from insects. You need pesticides which happen to be made of oil. Some problems could be overcome, crop rotation, etc., but others would cause quite a problem. Just some food for though. -Levi (That's the lot of it, I hope you guys get some use out of it, I have used a lot of the material for my own post-apoc gameworld, particularly the info on food production. If anyone wants the compilation as a whole rather than trying to copy & paste it from here, drop me a line at clone65@bigpond.com with any sort of header about Twilight and I'll post it back. I'm running Nortons AntiVirus 2004 so there should be no nasties with it - Cheers, Kevin) ***************** Abbott Shaull OT but a good and valid question? Some wonderful information to ponder for future games. Here is a question that I really never ponder too much until I started to read this. Wonder if any one else had given it much thought... Here is the one major problems with Operation Omega that I see now, as clear as rain, in its form given to us in T2K that seems to be overlooked by GDW and the game designers. Did the MilGov let those who are in charge of the areas of the landings that they would have extra mouths to feed during the Winter? IIRC it was something like Nov 2000 when the evacuation took place. Even a few thousand extra mouths would throw even a well stock area into trouble into trouble in the T2K. If they had built up the food stock where did it come from for the duration of the winter 2000-2001? I know there could be caches of MREs and other rations that they tapped into, but if I were the locals and seen 40,000 coming in for the winter and everyone seemed to be fed throughout the winter with little in starvation. Well that would get me to ponder on if those who were in charge were really looking after my best interest. Also several of the US units had seen at best limit action due to the fact that both sides had been largely unwilling to pull up stakes and go on the attack for major offensive due to the fact they had crops planted and what not. It went to the extent where several of the Pact units had refused orders to attack or counter-attack as the case may be. Many of the US units withdrawn during Operation Omega would have these to live off for the winter, but no room in Task Force 34 to take this food... Just some thoughts... Abbott ***************** TR The impression I always came away from the reading of the material was that although the troops came home they might not have stayed the winter in the port areas. A LOT of the troops would want to know what happened to family and friend, a percentage of them could strike out on their own easily. The problem of course for Civogv & Milgov is that they might like the troops swaying to their side... but their going to want to be assigned to their home states. Obviously this is not always possibile as not all states have a presence from either group. Feeding the troops in the port areas would be hectic to say the least. They would have had to do some planning for their arrivial, either crop production being increased or stockpiles of rations (civilian or military grade). Not to mention housing for them, medical supplies and personnel and so forth. All of these would have to be addressed by the panners of the operation. Otherwise bringing him all the troops would be leading to riots and the like as food, housing and medical shortages began. Something else to think about... TR ***************** graebarde Thanks for the memories Kev... I recall alot of that thread once I got into reading it again. As for 'preparing for the home coming of 40K mouths'.. that is a VERY good question. IF there was a 'stockpile' of food, then WHY was there starvation in the area. THAT is criminal, or is it population control? I think it would be a good reason to disperse the incoming troops as fast as possible, and to their home areas, since the locals might be more inclined to feed a native returned from teh wars to help restore the country than a mass of strangers. THAT would lead to some very nasty confrontations and a civil war within a civilwar. A way for the CivGov to gain support from the locals and instill unrest, as if there would not be enough already. grae.. ***************** Abbott Shaull Now, yes, it would be wise to disperse the group once they land, but this would be the start of winter by the time they did. By this time the being how most things have gone in the T2K. I really don't think moving troops through the seaboard area would be likely. I would think either way they go about they are going to have riots unless they disperse in two to four seperate location. As for hording food and what not. I didn't say it wouldn't cause a riot, it seems to be one of several ways they would come up with to work around the 40,000 plus mouths. Remember there are vast part of the country that don't have alligence to either side since they are waiting to see who wins the little civil war. Say use New Jersey around Fort Dix, then around GA, and a location or two along the Gulf Coast. This would mean only 10,000 soldier along with the sailors from each ship that brought them back. Or you can have like 8 or 9 location where each group will be responsible for forming a cadre for a new Division. These units could feasibily stay where they disembark for while as long as everything went as planned and then in the spring then jump off. Some units would say go to the Southwest Front and help out there. While units along the East Coast would systematically would leap from one location to the next helping to rebuild the nation. As the did this they would recruit and help train the local militias. They would stay in an area for as little as 6 months and for as long as needed before they would move on(ideally they would stay in location for 9 to 12 months trying to move each spring when practical). While they are in an particular they would build replacement units that would be sent to Southwest or Northwest as need as well as Brigade size militia units that would stay behind to provide security when they left. They would also get a head count as close as possible to help in getting new elections set up. So this would be done in piecemael, but hey at this stage there would be no one perfect plan to do it at once. Just some of my thoughts and opinions. Abbott ***************** ReHerakhte Hey, you're welcome Graebarde, I sometimes trawl through the old posts I archived after reading some of the posts here and find something every now and then that's worth bringing up in conversation but there was so much good stuff in this collection that I felt it was worth re-posting the whole lot rather than try and condense it. As for my take on the Op Omega/Winter scenario, I recall a saying from some military publication many years back that stated "Amateurs talk about strategy & tactics, professionals talk about logistics", logistics... moving something from here to there, so my primary thoughts are - vehicles & POL and food. No matter what else happens, you need to move the troops out to their re-assignments or you need to move food etc, into the port area. With all their heavy equipment left in Germany, the arriving troops will not have any serious transport capacity and you can only march on foot so far in a day... I figure there are likely to be a good number of General Service (GS) trucks available in CONUS as well as the cargo variants of the various Humvee and CUCV vehicles but would it be enough? A number of GS equivalent trucks could probably be taken up from civilian sources but there is still the issue of fuel acquisistion & distribution. No matter what, we are back to trying to 'push a little real world facts & figures' into the game setting. If it were only around 10 000 troops returning, it still equates to at least 10 000 meals a day for however long it takes to move them on... then there's the problems of resupplying them while they are travelling to their re-assignments... So, my basic problem with Op Omega is essentially: - how am I going to move supplies for 40 000+ to the port or move 40 000+ troops out of the port. Now I know acquiring that much food is definately a problem but I keep getting stuck on the problem of logistics and organization of such a task (too many real world worries for a game perhaps!) Cheers, Kevin ***************** graebarde Transportation will be a problem. Not so much finding the vehicles, but the fuel to run the vehicles. Not only is moving by foot slow, it takes alot of extra energy, which is the problem in the first place. Now it has been three years since the mushrooms sprouted. I realize there have been problems: drought, domestic strife, etc to get in the way of recovery, BUT since we're now discussing logistics, what about the railroads? Yep, they spread across the country. There is nowhere they are not within atleast a days walk, except possibly in the mountains or desert country of the west. The RR is the most efficient way to move tonnages on a ton-mile per gallon for land movements. The rolling stock is there, the lines are there (I cant see them just disappearing, or ppl tearing them up for nothing, though there would be areas this happened). If I were an area commander, getting the train running to my fringes would be a priority. I could move troops back and forth easier, move the food and fuels from the hinterland, and keep moving out. IF I were the higher commander, it would be the way I would link my areas. The biggest problem is motive power. Howmuch damage has been done to the diesel-electric engines (and I don't mean the engine itself, but the WHOLE engine.. that seems confuzing dont it).. There are alot of areas in the country were before the day, they had operating steam engines. Maybe it's cuz I'm a train nut, but there again, I would be harvesting any operational steamengine I could find. That in itself is a reason to get the coal mines working. Heating for the population in winter is essential in MOST of the US. Yeah I know coal is dirty, and most places dont have the way to burn it, but a drum stove is relatively easy to construct, and it sure beats freezing. Feed the miners well and they heat the country and keep it moving. In the interum, if the D-E engines are not functional, or you can't find the steam engines (and ppl to operate either), heavy trucks CAN be modified to run on the rails. The hardest thing about moving a train, is getting it rolling (of course beiing able to stop it helps too). And speaking of trucks. THis country is FULL of trucks.. 18-wheelers abound. I envision land trains, especially if the commander does not want to 'bother' with the railroads <shudders at the idea>. Land trains would entail a large tractor/truck pulling multiple trailers (more than three or four). Here again it would be getting them rolling, and stopping. But, the more you haul the more 'fuel efficient' you are per ton-mile or passenger-mile. It's not so much how much fuel you expend totally, but how efficiently you use your limited assets.. THAT is LOGISTICS. I hope this sparks some ideas. I appologize for the rambling thought (it's toooo damn early..) grae ***************** TR I think definately to move food in and out of the area as well as personnel you could see the return of any and all of the following: 1.) Trains, a big one as there's all the lines run already that might have to be serviced but still entact. Now the trains themselves, well there's a lot of museums around the USA that have antique trains in them so that might be a place to start. 2.) Horse Drawn Carriages, as silly as this one sounds you could see the return of horse carriages as means of transporting half a dozen or more (depending on the size of the carriage) around... but obviously the pony express system would need to be emulated again for way stations for fresh horses, water, food, etc. 3.) Riverine Traffic, this was a major transportation source during the war of 1812 so I don't see why it might not be used again in some areas of the country. The old paddle wheel boats would be an interesting sight to see going up river laden with troops and mounted with machine-guns... However none of these would be easy, each has inherent problems associated with them. So you end up taking the bad with the good. However walking would be the last resort, as most folk would be scared of armed drifters going through their areas. Until Later TR ***************** Abbott Shaull Yes, I could see several of the inherited network systems being used. The River systems would be one of the first and easiest to exploits due to the large number boats on the Countries waterways. You would need members of the US Corps Engineer or similiar background to help keep these water ways flowing if you planned on using anything, but shallow draft vessel for extended period of time. The Steam power conversion may take a while to catch on, but then again there are limited number of impliments out there that still these engines along the Mississippi River Valley and even on the Great Lakes as well as other locations. The railroad system there are still several Steam Power units, there are also several road vehicles that have been outfitted to work tracks. One thing to remember is the EMP. Now many Railroad Engine would have been left on in the North after the tail end of October so desiel lines wouldn't freeze. They don't use anti-freeze, IIRC what a rail crew told me this past winter. Also in some locations, I can see miles of track(okay limited to a couple miles here and there) in either direction being dismember to inprove local fortifications especailly in area where Marauders are a problem. Gee this has me thinking of some places where they had Rail-yards. Several Cities have them or they have multiple rail line running through town. I can just imagine what some of the Fortifcation some towns and cities could come up with. I mean Sault here has a small Railyard and couple miles of rail lines not used alone. Detroit Lakes, MN had a small switching yard and it was dual track for miles on the BNSF main line and they had CN(old Soo line). These are cities of between 7000 to 15000 before the war. Cities like Jackson with pre war population of around 30 to 40000 would had Conrail yard(now NS). Or these railyards extra tracks could be used to rebuild former lines that were torn up in the 80s and 90s depending on what the local need is. I see several Highway vehicle being converted for use on rails. As for the road/insterstate network. As was pointed out in one game it would be almost five years since there was any real systematic upgrade to these road way. If I-75 up here in the UP could be used as an example(that is before the last couple years) with the potholes and what not. It would still add to maintanence of the fleet. Also there are all of those bridge is several parts of the nation that up until say the last 5 to 10 years that have been found to be in much more need of repair that previous thought(Ingham County, MI is a great example of this). I see a lot of roadway Bridge failures out there. On the plus side with limited fuel the damage done by having thousands of vehicle using the roadway daily would decrease, but without upkeep maintanence it wouldn't take long for it go to sh*t either. You also have the problem of all of those vehicles during the Nuclear striked due to EMP. For the Semis yes their trailer could be used for. So Land trains could be an option, but would the cost of resource be really justified. The real problem with all three networks is that once you move out an Area of Control from any population center. You would run into various choke points that would have to be cleared every so often by military or local militia. Even then it wouldn't be 100% certain that Marauder/Pirate band hasn't set up an ambush waiting. Especially if these route see lots of travel. Even in the society today there are number of Semi-trucks that get stolen. Actually with the extensive transportation network that was in place in US, UK, and Germany. I find it really hard that those left in charge after the Nuke were being used didn't used each of these networks in their respective countries to their government full advantage. Just some of my thoughts on the subject... Abbott ***************** thefusilier Hello, I also remember that in Airlords of the Ozarks, the history on Memphis mentioned a local militia demanding tolls for using the riverways. This would imply to me that this form of transportation was already in place. It also might also imply that setting up tolls might be more advantageous than ambushing these civilian and military convoys. In some areas the military might not have the strength to challenge this and be forced to give in until they could launch an operation to remove the militia (Like they did in Memphis) I don't know, just some thoughts roaming about. ***************** ReHerakhte G'Day all, In regard to the Land Train concept, as Graebarde pointed out, with suitable prime movers (I think you call them tractors in the US), you can haul a stack of trailers. Here in Australia they use exactly that concept to supply many of the outback towns with three trailers hitched to one prime mover being standard but tests have been done with up to five trailers. They carry anything that needs to be moved from icecream to house bricks. As some useless info, over here we call them Road Trains, if I can locate a pic I'll post it up. Better still, here's a link to the Big Foto site's Aussie section http://www.bigfoto.com/sites/galery/..._roadtrain.jpg And another site I found 5 mins after posting this has a bucket load of pics of road trains, some with 4 trailers, some good pics for showing to Players but the site loads up slow due it having a stack of thumbnails http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/mohr4.htm And as for motive power for railroads, it was not uncommon in the past to use horses or oxen to haul railcars for short distances, as Grae pointed out, it's all a matter of getting them moving and also stopped but I recall some mention that a team of horses could pull 8-10 small flatcars/wagons without too much trouble. Downhill would be a bitch tho... Cheers, Kevin ***************** graebarde Hey Kev.. Realy liked that site with all the road trains/land trains. Now if THAT doesnt give someone ideas NOTHING will. Abbott, The use of multiple trailers with tractors is more economical from fuel and manpower than the equivalent short trucks. For example, it would take 3 to 4 (MAYBE MORE) 5-ton trucks to haul the equivallant cargo of ONE semi trailer, with ONE engine, and ONE driver. Now if said tractor is pulling TRIPLES you have ONE engine with ONE driver hauling the cargo of AT LEAST TEN 5-tonners. And diesel engines will probably fare better under EMP than the gas driven, it all depends on the injector setups.. I know the new trucks use electronic fuel control, so they would be toasted probly, but older diesels, early 90's and before, the ONLY electrical item they had to cause problems was the glow plug relay, and that is easly changed out, and common. IT acutally can be bypassed manually with a toggel mount, just remeber to turn the damn thing off... Choke points and targets.. ANY route will have it's choke point eventually I think. That is where the security comes in. That is where outposts are placed, etc. And I think they would still be running in convoy, esp through areas of suspected dangers. As for the bad roads, well they were gravel along time before they were hard surfaced. And heavy vehicles take their toll on any road, but it is SPEED combined with teh weight that causes most of the damage, so if the speed is kept low, there is not the POUNDING form viabrations that give roads the washboard surface, and create huge potholes (yes there are other factors involcved caused by nature, but the leading contributor is weight AND speed. ONE of the reason trcuks had lower speed limits, and THE reason for weight limits on axels in the spring time in the northlands.) THAT is where any surplus people are put to work, filling pot holes. OR it could be prison gang work as it was in the past. grae ***************** Abbott Shaull Okay. Now that I see some of the fact behind the logic of land trains. Yeah, it would be put what of the interstate and US route systems to good use. Like there would be much traffic to interfer with anyway anymore. Sorry, I am the type of person who has to have stuff in broken down a bit before it make sense. Yes, I can see all types of force labor for prisoners in T2K than they allow now adays...lol... Abbott ***************** Chuck Mandus Count me in too, I'd love to see it Chuck ***************** TR Let's not forget not only road crews would be required but also the mechanics needed to keep the trucks and cargo modules operational... not ot mention industry to make repair parts, tires, fuel and the like... nothing is impossibile. Later TR
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