Neutral Aircraft Carriers.

[kato13]

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FightingFlamingo

Neutral Aircraft Carriers.

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Does anyone have data on the fate of some of the Aircraft carriers operated by countries other than the US. Brazil & Argentina had aircraft carriers until the late 1980's, Brazil still operates one former French CV. The French operated 2 CV's through much of the Twilight War. Spain operated a STOL CV with AV8B's, as did Italy. Further India also purchased the Hermes to replace their aging carrier ( again a STOL operation with AV8's). If any of these survived the war, Particularly the French CV's, they would represent a signifigant power projection capability for the nations which operated them post 1997.
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Cold Blue Steel - the spirit of the bayonet


FightingFlamingo





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DeaconR

I don't have Spain as neutral in my game. Spain's navy is greatly reduced and they don't have an operational carrier in my campaign. I have depicted Brazil and Peru as still having theirs, and this being a major factor in the possibility of civil war and internal anarchy ending as the Juntas which have access to them are using them to reinforce their power. What happens after this is the big question.

In my campaign India's carrier was destroyed by a Chinese submarine in the middle of the war.

France has used their remaining carrier as a means to establish French naval power in the Caribbean in order to bring resources from there to France.


DeaconR





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FightingFlamingo

Deacon,
Do you have the French operating the DeGaul, the Clemenceau, or both, The Foch having been sold to Brazil.
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Cold Blue Steel - the spirit of the bayonet


FightingFlamingo





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DeaconR

The deGaulle is being operated.


DeaconR





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FightingFlamingo

I'm thinking of having the deGaulle as a CV, and the Clemenceau retained in the LPH role.

Argentina's 25 de Mayo is sunk by UK SSN when they attempt to reoccupy the Falklands.

Brazil's Minas Gerias is destroyed in port when San Paolo is hit by a Argentine boosted Fission Weapon (60kt)

India operates both the R22 Viraat & the R11 Vikrant although the Vikrant is barely seaworthy (retained only because of the worsening global situation). Both sunk, R22 to Pakistani Land based Aviation assents, R11 in port to Nuke.

Spain's Principe de Asturias is operating in the Western Med, conducting antipiracy operations, more as a destroyer tender for small patrol craft than as a CV due to lack of fuel, and parts for it's AV8 aircraft

Italy's Giuseppe Garibaldi was sent to the bottom by an airstrike from US Carrier Based aircraft operating just West of the Strait of Gibralter in 1997.
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Cold Blue Steel - the spirit of the bayonet


FightingFlamingo





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thefusilier

Check the archives, someone wrote a good piece on the worlds carriers and battleships. I think I saved, I will look when I get home.
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The Fusilier


thefusilier





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FightingFlamingo

Fusilier,
Were you able to find that... I didn't see it in the archive.
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Cold Blue Steel - the spirit of the bayonet


FightingFlamingo





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thefusilier

Hi,
Here is some of it (more somewhere on my pc). Sorry, I just cut and paste, I don't know who wrote it.

"Carriers

Soviet Navy had four Kiev-class ASW carriers: 2 in NORTHFLT and two in PACFLT. All sunk 1996-97. The two Kusnetsov class ships: Kusnetsov herself was sunk at the GIUK gap, while Varyag was sunk in a carrier vs. carrier battle with USS Nimitz and her battle group. Two other members of the class (unnamed and un-launched) destroyed when Nikoliyev shipyard in Ukraine nuked.

Royal Navy’s three Invincible-class CVS: two sunk, Illustrious at GIUK, Invincible at Kola. HMS Ark Royal at Portsmouth immobilized for lack of fuel (she’s non-nuclear).

Indian carriers Vikrant and Virrat both casualties of the Indo-Pakistani conflict-Vikrant nuked in Bombay naval base, Virrat sunk by a (lucky) Pakistani submarine attack.

Spanish and Thai carriers: Rota NB in Spain was nuked to deny the nearby oil refinery to NATO. The carrier was not in port-escorting tanker convoy to Spain w/battle group, but is immobilized at Cadiz for lack of fuel.
The Thai carrier is in a similar condition at her home port in Thailand.

The French: The Charles De Gaulle completed in 1995 and her sister Richelieu in 1997. CDG is active in the Gulf per the RDF revised OB. Richelieu active in the Med out of Toulon.

LANTFLT’s carriers were no doubt involved in stopping SOVNORTHFLT from breaking the GIUK gap in Dec of ’96, and supported the Norwegian and Kola campaigns (where they got pretty well beat up). I’d say there would be ONE big carrier still operating - My choice for this: USS Eisenhower (CVN-69) and CVW-7, with her (depleted) battle group.

Two other carriers, USS America (CV-66) is immobilized at Tromoso, Norway and is unable to go to sea due to damage from BACKFIRE-launched AS-4 missiles. CVW-1 flies out of Bodo AB. USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) is at
Portsmouth, England with CVW-8. She is still capable of going to sea, but needs reactor fuel. The British are attempting to procure the fuel so that the ship can return home. LANTFLT has two amphibious carriers: USS Wasp (LHD-1) and USS Nassau (LHA-4)

PACFLT has USS Nimitz (CVN-68) with CVW-9. Based IRL at Evrett, WA, her home is NAS Alameda, CA.
USS Constellation (CV-64) with CVW-2. She is immobilized at Guam for lack of fuel. Aircraft are based at nearby Andersen AFB. Sorties are VERY infrequent due to fuel shortages.
Two amphibious carriers are also around: USS Bataan (LHD-5) at Sasebo, Japan, supporting the US Eighth Army in Korea; and USS Peleliu (LHA-5) at Hilo, HI. The latter ship sails in Hawaiian waters supporting Hawaiian Reconstruction. Sailings are infrequent due to fuel shortages.
The carrier immobilized at Muscat, Oman is USS Independence (CV-62) with both torpedo damage and ASM damage. If a shipyard with supertanker size dry-dock was available, it would take 18 months of repairs to get her seaworthy. A caretaker crew is aboard, but most have been reassigned to other 5th FLT ships in the Gulf.

Battleships

Iowa: Active in Atlantic. Provided fire support for NATO ground forces in Norway, Iceland and at Kola. Sunk by Oscar-class SSGN 11/26/97 E of Iceland.

New Jersey: Active in Atlantic. Sunk Soviet light cruiser Sverdlov off Grenada. Supported NATO forces in Norway, Kola, and Baltic. Mined off Bremerhaven, Germany 2/17/98 and beached as constructive total loss. Hulk stripped and destroyed during Operation OMEGA.

Missouri: Active in Pacific. Supported US forces in Korea. Torpedoed by Victor-III class SSN and made port in Pusan, Korea. Destroyed in port when Pusan nuked 10/24/97.

Wisconsin: Active in Pacific. Supported US forces in Korea and bombarded Petrapavlosk, Kamchatka. Wiped out Soviet convoy headed for Alaska. Torpedoed in bow by Victor-II class SSN and sent to Pearl Harbor for repairs. Diverted to Hilo while at sea when Honolulu nuked. Still at Hilo, capable of going to sea (only 1 torpedo hit), but immobile for lack of fuel.

Des Moines Class Heavy Cruisers

Des Moines: Reactivated from mothballs 1/97. Sent to Pacific 7/97 and assigned to 7th FLT in Japan. Active throughout Korean Campaign. In port at Chinhae, ROK, and immobile for lack of fuel.

Salem: Reactivated from Mothballs 1/97. Sent to Persian Gulf and assigned to 5th FLT 7/97. Still active in Gulf as of 1 Jan 2001. She is the Flagship of 5th FLT. Supported defense of Bushehr and landings at Chah Bahar."



I got tons more saved from previous discussions (some even from the old forum I think). Unfortunatly alot of it is just copy/pasted onto Word documents and needing a major reorganizing.
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The Fusilier


thefusilier





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chico20854

Would you guys be interested in trying to create a narrative naval history of the twilight war, to accompany Webstral's Storm in Germany?

We could do the organising here, create a yahoo group to do so, or do it via email?

Canon is pretty sparse so we would have to pull together those golden tidbits like Fusilier just posted and add additional details as we semi-agree upon.

We could divide the task up on operational and geographic lines once a big-picture timeline of major events is worked out. (i.e. NATO Strike Force Atlantic - we know when Kola battles were, Mediterranean ops, etc. Now need to fill in details. One person lead on this while others deal with amphibious ops, and another with logistics and sealift. Handle as 3 seperate naval wars - Atlantic, Pacific and Middle East... where to include the Med?).

Start out with the major nations then fill in the more minor ones?

I'll take the lead if you want. Let me know!


chico20854





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Law0369

Marines

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I Would Help With Marines. Iam Active Duty And Could Talk Down To Plt Level If Wated From My Side Of The House. Also Have A Order Of Battle For Pac North West . I Would Like To Post.
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Law0369





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FightingFlamingo

I certainly would be interested... we all would have to cometo a general agreement over the course of the war.
Additionally, We'd have to go and look at what the French fleet would be doing, because in 96 and 97 merchants destined for french ports would likely come under attack, at least occasionally, if even by accident...
decide who stays neutral (Pacific and European Theater's both). How neutrals handle protection of their commercial shipping...(Brazil & Taiwan come to mind)
the effectiveness of SOSUS...

their's a ton to hash out... but it could be very fullfilling...
maybe we should start with establishing a naval OOB for all the blue water navies ( probably globally since everyone is going to be affected as the way progresses )
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Cold Blue Steel - the spirit of the bayonet


FightingFlamingo





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graebardeII

Quote:
Originally Posted by chico20854
Would you guys be interested in trying to create a narrative naval history of the twilight war, to accompany Webstral's Storm in Germany?

We could do the organising here, create a yahoo group to do so, or do it via email?

Canon is pretty sparse so we would have to pull together those golden tidbits like Fusilier just posted and add additional details as we semi-agree upon.

We could divide the task up on operational and geographic lines once a big-picture timeline of major events is worked out. (i.e. NATO Strike Force Atlantic - we know when Kola battles were, Mediterranean ops, etc. Now need to fill in details. One person lead on this while others deal with amphibious ops, and another with logistics and sealift. Handle as 3 seperate naval wars - Atlantic, Pacific and Middle East... where to include the Med?).

Start out with the major nations then fill in the more minor ones?

I'll take the lead if you want. Let me know!



I say do it here, though Yayhooz groups would be nice from having files sections to utilize. I'll help where I can with research and such. Maybe use Yayhooz for a working place, and post the 'findings' here periodically?

Grae


graebardeII





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Matt Wiser

I see Fusiler found one of my old Naval posts; by all means, if you have some more, please go ahead and repost them. (I'm not sure where I have the originals)

Naval project? I'd be glad to be of assistance. One big gripe with canon is their treatment of the Naval War. I'd be glad to help with the Nimitz v. Varyag carrier battle S of Kamchatka. Ivan lost the carrier, the Kirov-class
cruiser Frunze, and a Slava-class cruiser. U.S./Japanese losses were a cruiser, two destroyers, and a frigate. (Both cruisers were lost to submarine
attack a la Leyte Gulf. The Soviet commander wanted to abort his mission,
having lost his Anti-Air Warfare ships, but was ordered to proceed. VADM
Dimitri Kurchatov obeyed the order, and died with his flagship under the
Harpoon and Tomahawk missiles, Laser-guided bombs, and submarine torpedoes of the Nimitz battle group) Without the carrier or AAW ships, the
remainder of the Soviet force turned back to Petropavalosk-Kamchatka.

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Last edited by Matt Wiser : 01-20-2006 at 11:41 PM.


Matt Wiser





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thefusilier

Hey, nice and interesting naval engagement. Anymore on hand?
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The Fusilier