Q Ships

[jester]

I was just wondering, what is the likelyhood of having Q ships in the Twilight World. Much like the WWI vessels that were armed and manned by naval crews, but sailed looking like steamers and sailing vessels of the day. Then when the submarine surfaced, the crew went into action and guns were brought out from colapsing cargo containers and false deckhouses to be trained on the now surfaced and vulnerable submarine.

And in the Twilight world, these could be used to deal with pirates, or even to hide the fact that the vessel is on an armed mission or is just an armed cargo vessel, or that the PCs are on an operation and don't want to be unarmed but they also do not want to draw undue attention to themselves being overtly briming with weapons.

[Matt Wiser]

I believe that Chico and company have the Russians using the old German tactic of disguised commerce raiders. Similar to a Q-Ship, but the prey is different. Instead of being a sub-hunter, the raider hunts for unescorted merchant ships and either sinks or seizes them as prizes and sends them off to a friendly port. Many of the camo tricks (false paint schemes, flying a neutral flag, concealed guns and torpedo tubes, etc.) are the same either way. The Germans sent only nine raiders to sea in WW II, but they sank or captured 890,000 tons of merchant shipping (including victims of raider-laid mines), and one raider, KMS Kormoran, sank an Australian light cruiser as well. The Soviets in the 1950s probably had studied the possiblity of raiders, but nothing of their naval plans for WW III has been released, and given the current Russian leadership, those files aren't going to be released anytime soon.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

The Germans sent only nine raiders to sea in WW II, but they sank or captured 890,000 tons of merchant shipping (including victims of raider-laid mines), and one raider, KMS Kormoran, sank an Australian light cruiser as well.

And was itself sunk in the same battle. The wreck of HMAS Sydney was finally found earlier this year deep beneath the India Ocean off the coast the State where I live. It was a big event here in Australia and the Germans' use of disguised raiders is a sore point in this country. The Sydney was lost with all hands but the Kormoran's crew made it to life boats and were captured on the Western Australian coast. Think less of me if you like but I would have shot the entire German crew as spies or pirates. Dressing up a custom built raider (the Kormoran was laid down at the start of the war and was specifically designed to be a disguised warship) is a dirty trick and I wouldn't have shown a shred of mercy to the crew. The Sydney was the pride and joy of the Royal Australian Navy until it was sunk.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Targan

And was itself sunk in the same battle. The wreck of HMAS Sydney was finally found earlier this year deep beneath the India Ocean off the coast the State where I live. It was a big event here in Australia and the Germans' use of disguised raiders is a sore point in this country. The Sydney was lost with all hands but the Kormoran's crew made it to life boats and were captured on the Western Australian coast. Think less of me if you like but I would have shot the entire German crew as spies or pirates. Dressing up a custom built raider (the Kormoran was laid down at the start of the war and was specifically designed to be a disguised warship) is a dirty trick and I wouldn't have shown a shred of mercy to the crew. The Sydney was the pride and joy of the Royal Australian Navy until it was sunk.

thats pretty hard liner Targan ?

It wont do to start comparing war crimes - it is the war that is the crime.

[jester]

Targ;

I remember that and was waiting with baited breath.

And I am torn. Technicaly, you are right and valid. And I lean towards you that way. But also give credit where credit it due. Did not the kraut crew even with the disadvantage they had <that all pirates have> when they faced the crew of the Syndney?

Sadly when naval warfare comes, a major factor is "LUCK" and it does not always go to the victor.

However, there is nothing wrong with pulling for your country and your countrymen!

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by headquarters

thats pretty hard liner Targan ?

It wont do to start comparing war crimes - it is the war that is the crime.

I'm staying out of this quasi-political debate......

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

And was itself sunk in the same battle. The wreck of HMAS Sydney was finally found earlier this year deep beneath the India Ocean off the coast the State where I live. It was a big event here in Australia and the Germans' use of disguised raiders is a sore point in this country. The Sydney was lost with all hands but the Kormoran's crew made it to life boats and were captured on the Western Australian coast. Think less of me if you like but I would have shot the entire German crew as spies or pirates. Dressing up a custom built raider (the Kormoran was laid down at the start of the war and was specifically designed to be a disguised warship) is a dirty trick and I wouldn't have shown a shred of mercy to the crew. The Sydney was the pride and joy of the Royal Australian Navy until it was sunk.

For my part, I won't think bad about you for that especially as the allies would have had the right to do it. privateer war had been banned after WWI and Nazi Germany was not respecting the international regulation on that matter: they were indeed spies or pirates commiting war crimes.

On the other hand, I find wiser to consider that they were obeing orders. The allies assumed a similar position as it is proven by the Nuremberg Trial. Nazi leaders were prosecuted, convicted (death or imprisonment sentences) or relaeased (Hjalmar Schacht). Admiral Raeder (commanding the surface fleet) was among them and sentenced to life imprisonment. Admiral Donitz (commanding the submarines) was condemned to only ten years but submarines warfare remain legal. For info Schacht was a banker who finally opposed hitler and had spent at least a year in concentration camps (Ravensbruck and Dachau). Nothings perfect.

Targan, I understand your position but that would imply to execute every soldier involved in illegal action (that will be a lot if not all). We do (martial courts) but when we know the true responsible people, it's always better to spare lives. Moreover, martial courts often sentence to death soldiers who are not guilty of much. The French strike leaders of 1916 (I believe) were executed and obviously they were right. However, the high ranking officers (Marshall Foch, Petain...) were praised as heroes and still are. I consider them to be war criminals as I can't find any justification in killing your own soldiers needlessly by sending them over and over on pointless assaults. I'm not the one saying that as trench warfare as it was conducted in WWI is widely regarded today as pure insanity. Hopefully, for that matter, time as changed and I even have American friends dreaming of getting after Bush for war crimes (not for invading Irak but for being responsible for 35000 U.S. casualties, plus tortures, Guantanamo..., and why not financing terrorism).

[jester]

Ah but the generals were following protocol! Tradition my freind. We must preserve order for the sake of order. Right or Wrong be damned!

It is the institution that is at stake after all, and that must not be challenged.

Then again, maybe I have read "Billy Budd" or watched "Paths to Glory" one to many times. Ah, I know, it was my watching "Breaker Morant" last weekend! Thats it.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

For my part, I won't think bad about you for that especially as the allies would have had the right to do it. privateer war had been banned after WWI and Nazi Germany was not respecting the international regulation on that matter: they were indeed spies or pirates commiting war crimes.

On the other hand, I find wiser to consider that they were obeing orders. The allies assumed a similar position as it is proven by the Nuremberg Trial. Nazi leaders were prosecuted, convicted (death or imprisonment sentences) or relaeased (Hjalmar Schacht). Admiral Raeder (commanding the surface fleet) was among them and sentenced to life imprisonment. Admiral Donitz (commanding the submarines) was condemned to only ten years but submarines warfare remain legal. For info Schacht was a banker who finally opposed hitler and had spent at least a year in concentration camps (Ravensbruck and Dachau). Nothings perfect.

Targan, I understand your position but that would imply to execute every soldier involved in illegal action (that will be a lot if not all). We do (martial courts) but when we know the true responsible people, it's always better to spare lives. Moreover, martial courts often sentence to death soldiers who are not guilty of much. The French strike leaders of 1916 (I believe) were executed and obviously they were right. However, the high ranking officers (Marshall Foch, Petain...) were praised as heroes and still are. I consider them to be war criminals as I can't find any justification in killing your own soldiers needlessly by sending them over and over on pointless assaults. I'm not the one saying that as trench warfare as it was conducted in WWI is widely regarded today as pure insanity.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by jester

Ah but the generals were following protocol! Tradition my freind. We must preserve order for the sake of order. Right or Wrong be damned!

It is the institution that is at stake after all, and that must not be challenged.

Then again, maybe I have read "Billy Budd" or watched "Paths to Glory" one to many times. Ah, I know, it was my watching "Breaker Morant" last weekend! Thats it.

I agree but that was a century ago and we don't have to go with the dogmas anymore. Moreover, I'm a pragmatic idealist, I understand and accept the weight of reality but I'm always happy when a tiny bit of justice slips into it .

In France everyone knows about "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" (Freedom, Equality and Franternity) but fewer people know about what should govern our government actions : In the name of the people, for the people and by the people. Politicians worldwide are getting on my nerves but, as a result, I read our constitution (thanks them). However, my position is valid only for France but when I have American friends telling me that they are affraid of their government, I don't like it. (Oops, I'm getting too much in politics again I do a post about that).

[Targan]

Originally Posted by jester

Ah, I know, it was my watching "Breaker Morant" last weekend!

Breaker Morant is an excellent film. One of my favourites. Can't recommend it highly enough. One of my ancestors was a member of the Bushveldt Carbineers from Australia and died in the Boer War.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Targan, I understand your position but that would imply to execute every soldier involved in illegal action (that will be a lot if not all).

Not all. Just the bastards involved in allowing the pride of the Australian fleet to pull alongside for a routine cargo check of a freighter only to have it suddenly uncover hidden gun turrets and torpedo tubes, run up a German flag and rake the Sydney from end to end. For that war crime yes, I'd kill the whole gwerman crew. And not shed a single tear for them.

And as you well know, "I was just following orders" is not an acceptable defence in a war crimes trial. Is not and should not be. Even in basic training I had sufficient explanations given to me to know an illegal order when I hear it.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

Not all. Just the bastards involved in allowing the pride of the Australian fleet to pull alongside for a routine cargo check of a freighter only to have it suddenly uncover hidden gun turrets and torpedo tubes, run up a German flag and rake the Sydney from end to end. For that war crime yes, I'd kill the whole gwerman crew. And not shed a single tear for them.

And as you well know, "I was just following orders" is not an acceptable defence in a war crimes trial. Is not and should not be. Even in basic training I had sufficient explanations given to me to know an illegal order when I hear it.

I understood it well. And I was not saying that the German put "the following orders" as a defence. In fact the Ally Command obviously considered it to be the case and they went for the true responsible people. A 18-20 years old kid follow orders blindly when properly given by a higher authority and that might be another crime to hold him entirely responsible. I understand your point and, as someone else said, you are right to support your own but you are considering revenge. As an individual that is perfectly respectable but comming from a government (even in war time) it is murder. As we agreed upon some times ago, Australia is a democracy, they have acted as such and i think all Australians should be proud of such things (also, I'm sure you are).

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Targan

Not all. Just the bastards involved in allowing the pride of the Australian fleet to pull alongside for a routine cargo check of a freighter only to have it suddenly uncover hidden gun turrets and torpedo tubes, run up a German flag and rake the Sydney from end to end. For that war crime yes, I'd kill the whole gwerman crew. And not shed a single tear for them.

And as you well know, "I was just following orders" is not an acceptable defence in a war crimes trial. Is not and should not be. Even in basic training I had sufficient explanations given to me to know an illegal order when I hear it.

The resistance fighters in Europe and Asia that were out of uniform but still making attacks ?
The crews of British and American bomberplanes that openly followed the strategy of bombing enemy civillians en masse to terrorize the enemy population to give in ?
Or even the use of nuclear weapons ?

All easily defined as major war crimes by standards that were apllied then as today .

I believe the Q-ships are a British denomination actually -they had several -albeit not as clever or succesful as the Germans.Then again there was more allied shipping to attack.. The Germans called them merchant raiders /Hilfskreuser or some such .

Anyways -had I lived back then or had relatives onboard I would have probably chimed in with you targan-but as I live blessedly far removed from such things I take another -the opposite stand .

(My party is condemned to death in absentia by MilGov for warcrimes etc ..they figure on MilGovs deck of villain cards as the most wanted rebel/bandit leaders in the CONUS.hehe They even compete to "improve "their ranking some times ..anyways -thats neither here nor there )

[jester]

Thats something to consider!

That old derelict ship you see actualy turns out to be a Russian Q ship who is sitting in port only to gather intel?