The 8th ID takes a wrong turn at Albuquerque...

[sglancy12]

Gentlemen,

I've read through all the canon material in both versions of the US Army Vehicle Guide, The OOB in Going Home and the East Europe Sourcebook and I've got to tell you, I am not happy with the rational for dropping the 8th Infantry Division into Latvia.

A rookie officer reads a map wrong and the WHOLE division ends up not in Lithuania or the RFSSR enclave around Kalingrad, but in freakin' Latvia?

First of all, one "rookie officer" can't get an entire division lost. That's not the way divisions move. It's not like some bickering couple in a horror movie where one of them is reading the map while the other is driving and Whoops! They fail to take that left turn at Albuquerque and end up having to spend the night in Dracula's castle.

What? Everyone in the division woke up and forgot which side of the map the sun comes up on?

Sovetsk is in the RFSSR enclave around Kalingraad, right on the border with Lithuania. To cross Lithuania and get to Saldus Latvia is like 230+ km! Sorry. I'm not buying that. You need more going on to make them go that far... like a Soviet Army barking at their heels.

Second of all, how does a division running on ethanol and methanol have the range to get themselves stuck two countries away from where they are supposed to be? I can understand that since they were given the assignment to flank and pursue Warsaw Pact units in Northern Poland they might be give more than their fair share of fuel, but when things fall apart for XI Corps and the III German Army I can't imagine them just blundering off to Latvia. When they should be running west as fast as they can. Sure there could be Pact Units surrounding them and this was the only direction they could break out, but 200+km is a bit far to run when there's NO ONE on their six. I mean, Lithuania is completely clear of Soviet Units. The 8th ID actually has to cross an area they are safe in to get into an area with 5000+ (reasonably loyal) soviet troops.

If I was rewriting this I would have them break out of their own encirclement (ala the 5th ID) and find themselves out of fuel in Lithuania. Hell, they could accidentally become the Liberators of Lithuania by scaring off the MVD and KGB units that have been oppressing the local Lithuanians.

Frankly the Latvians are in a pretty good situation with the defection of the 26th GMRD to Latvia. They don't need the Americans in there to help. Maybe it would make for better role-playing opportunities if the 8th ID find themselves dragooned into becoming the saviors of Lithuania. I can imagine the Lithuanians helping the 8th ID with all the ammo and gear they can spare, but never enough fuel to get back across the Baltic Coast to XI Corps.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Legbreaker]

I'm with you on the navigation issue - it just doesn't ring true (although I wouldn't be totally surprised - I've seen some absolutely WOEFUL nav skills over the years!)
To my mind there has to be another explanation, some mission they were tasked with but was kept secret from the bulk of the men, or they were chased there by overwhelming force, or something more fantastic (but at least more believable).

Perhaps the 8th's real mission was to seize and hold Estonia's oil shade and a nearby port. With the rest of the German III Army holding northern Poland and the Baltic coast, the resulting synthetic crude could be shipped fairly safely to the rest of Nato.

Hmm, maybe this shale was the actual objective of the whole offensive?

[Canadian Army]

I believe they teach Orienteering as part of Infantry training for Officers, at least they do in Canada.

[Legbreaker]

Teach it, yes, but does that mean everyone actually passes?
Hell, here in Australia it's part of recruit training for the enlisted. About week three of 12 if my memory serves (it has been nearly 20 years).

[HorseSoldier]

I suspect what we're seeing is poor internal consistency between products, with the initial idea being what the OP suggested -- 8th ID is eventually pushed into a stable position in Latvia by the enemy situation further west. Then later writers failed to substantiate that in other sourcebooks. As for the navigation error, I agree it's improbable, but maybe it's a bit of a joke -- the division's patch being 'eight up' and all . . ..

[rcaf_777]

I know I have said this before but, as a boy scout leader I teach boys and girls ages 9-13 Map and Compass and they get it, and are very good at it. SOOOOOOOOOOOO it begs the question why is the most dangerous thing I have every encoutner in my military career is an OFFICER WITH A MAP

[Raellus]

The 8-Ball's plight is one of T2K's most hair-brained, half-baked ideas.

It's not canonical but I've injected the Soviet 9th GTA into northern Poland as a mechanism to explain the collapse of German 3rd Army's summer offensive. I think this could also help explain how the 8th ID ends up in Latvia. The sudden appearance of a Soviet tank army in 8th ID's operational rear area could explain 8th ID's long, strange trip into Latvia. With a strong enemy at their heels and relatively undefended territory in front of them, they could be forgiven for going the wrong way.

This explanation is still a stretch but it does make more sense than some rookie staff officer making a wrong turn (that 1000 other people don't notice until it's too late). That's just preposterous.

[HorseSoldier]

This explanation is still a stretch but it does make more sense than some rookie staff officer making a wrong turn (that 1000 other people don't notice until it's too late). That's just preposterous.

That story is coming out of East Europe Sourcebook, right? I never paid attention to the v2.x supplements, since they seemed to either be rehashed stuff or just crap. EES being an example of the latter.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It's not canonical but I've injected the Soviet 9th GTA into northern Poland.

In my current campaign (taking place in northern Poland and regarding the 8th), I've also added additional forces. Partly to give some more challenge to the players but also as added pressure on the 8th Division to help explain their questionable actions.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Craig Shelley is the author of East European Sourcebook and the adventure City of Angels.

If you think East European Sourcebook is bad, City of Angels is far worse, IMHO.

Aside from the such noteworthy things such as the Turkish Army having more T-55, 7-62 and T-72 tanks than any other tank in their inventory, I found the East European sourcebook useful.

I did like his fleshing out of the remnants of 8th ID. I'm not too keen on the map reading "mistake". I like the shale oil angle.

Also didn't 1st edition mention the Free Latvia Army somewhere? Perhaps linking up with the Free Latvia Army and securing the shale oil were the true objectives (although a bit ambitious).

[Abbott Shaull]

Well if they were being pursued, and being they were more or less turned loose to do what Mechanized/Armor type unit is envisioned to do. I think a junior officer making a mistake reading a compass is the least of their problems. Especially if they all other are too busy doing whatever they were doing that even the old crusty NCOs that were still around failed to realize the mistake. Then it plausible. Also don't forget they would of passed the 22nd Cavalry Army on it rush to the party north of Kalisz...

[Legbreaker]

I don't think V1 had anything on Latvia besides the 8th being in the area.

The shale might have been far reaching, but there was an entire Army backing it all up, plus whatever else was happening with other units a little further south. I can't imagine that the German III Army would have been the only ones on the offensive - the others may only have been a diversion to tie up the Pact forces, but they had to be actively involved in the overall European plan to some degree.

Although the US XI Corps where the only ones to make any significant ground, my guess is the rest of the German III were to follow on and reinforce. They would allow the northern Poland corridor to be held.

Once the shale was secured and extraction of oil underway, Nato forces could only increase in power as their manoeuvrability increased. The Pact may counterattack, but first they'd have to recover from the German III'ds drive.

Re the navigation mistake, by 2000 it's possible not many compasses remain. Given a few cloudy days without the sun to use as a bearing and it's possible a few small mistakes could snowball. It'd still have to be a hell of a chain of events though for the entire Division to become "geographically embarrassed".

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I know I have said this before but, as a boy scout leader I teach boys and girls ages 9-13 Map and Compass and they get it, and are very good at it. SOOOOOOOOOOOO it begs the question why is the most dangerous thing I have every encoutner in my military career is an OFFICER WITH A MAP

I learned map and compass at that age. During an exercise (as conscript), I was in charge of them and we were to get back to our airbase as fast as possible. Our squad was the last to leave (2 hours after the first) and I had a fucked-up knee. We arrived second at the base, only ten minutes after the squad that left first (I still thank that teacher today). The answer might be that officers don't ever reach the mental age of 9.

[pmulcahy11b]

Maybe they're supposed to be some sort of foil for the 26th GMRD, but it's another one of those boo-boos by GDW. Why are you anyway, to demand a good explanation for everything?!

[Legbreaker]

The position of the 8th ID is first established in V1.0. Further explaination of their plight is found in the east Europe book.

The more I think about it, the stronger I believe that the 8th were in the area by plan rather than accident. Their exact location may be a result of navigational error, but in my mind that wouldn't put them more than a couple of dozen miles away from where they thought they were.

Bear in mind that there's no GPS, maps are scarce and probably completely inadequate - 1:1,000,000 or greater and intended for aircrew.

I'm liking the shale oil idea as an objective as it both removes the resource from the Soviets and gives Nato greater mobility. It may require domination of the Baltic to allow transport of the oil, but with the entire Polish coast covered by the German III Army, I don't see that being a major concern.

Why wouldn't Nato go for shale deposits closer to their starting position? Probably because they were already strongly covered by Pact forces, had been worked dry by the Germans in WWII and likely nuked by one, or both sides in 1997-98.