US Military shotguns

[James Langham]

A quick article about US military use of shotguns. Anyone who can add info please let me know.

[dragoon500ly]

Always a pleasure to read your work. I think you caught the high points.

The SAS pioneered a couple of loads in Malaya; a 12g slug with three buck shot (buck and ball) and a mixed load of buck and bird shot (I want to say no.3 bird shot, but I'm not sure), the latter was useful in jungle terrain.

It was always funny when inspecting an arms room to see the number of private purchase shotguns that were stored there. It always seemed that just about every vehicle commander intended to carry one, just in case.

[Panther Al]

Also to be noted, though its more aimed at the previous few years in Iraq than the TW, was the fact that the SPAS12 was remarkably common - more so since it was never officially adopted nor purchased by the Army as far as I can tell. I carried one as a primary or secondary weapon for almost a year over there.

[dragoon500ly]

The favorites when I was active was either a Mossburg or a Remi 870 pump or a Remi 1100 semiauto.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Also to be noted, though its more aimed at the previous few years in Iraq than the TW, was the fact that the SPAS12 was remarkably common - more so since it was never officially adopted nor purchased by the Army as far as I can tell. I carried one as a primary or secondary weapon for almost a year over there.

Think I will have to add a note about private weapons.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Also to be noted, though its more aimed at the previous few years in Iraq than the TW, was the fact that the SPAS12 was remarkably common - more so since it was never officially adopted nor purchased by the Army as far as I can tell. I carried one as a primary or secondary weapon for almost a year over there.

How did you get access to a SPAS-12? And did you really like using it? I have one and yeah it looks bad ass, but that is one slow mother to reload. I could see the appeal of carrying it as a coolness factor, but damn! After your 9 rounds are expended your pulling a side arm or hiding behind something until its topped off. Plus, you must have had a cool chain of command, because most units are run by the politically correct.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

How did you get access to a SPAS-12? And did you really like using it? I have one and yeah it looks bad ass, but that is one slow mother to reload. I could see the appeal of carrying it as a coolness factor, but damn! After your 9 rounds are expended your pulling a side arm or hiding behind something until its topped off. Plus, you must have had a cool chain of command, because most units are run by the politically correct.

The previous owners no longer had any need for them (Any of the twelve). I didn't find it that hard - or slow - to reload when needed, pretty much always kept in mind when nothing else is happening, slip a round to top it off whenever possible. As to PC officers, ours would normally fall in that category, but since he made sure we had "issues" with ammo (He would allow our grenadiers to have any ammo for the 203's for fear of making us feel too aggressive) and always always had "unforseen difficulties" when putting in for Ammo resupply. At one point our troop was down to less than 300 rounds. 300 Rounds.

So the point was made to him by NCO's much higher than myself, that since we can't seem to get 5.56 we was gonna use whatever we could, it was a "health and safety" issue for all involved, mostly his.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

The previous owners no longer had any need for them (Any of the twelve). I didn't find it that hard - or slow - to reload when needed, pretty much always kept in mind when nothing else is happening, slip a round to top it off whenever possible. As to PC officers, ours would normally fall in that category, but since he made sure we had "issues" with ammo (He would allow our grenadiers to have any ammo for the 203's for fear of making us feel too aggressive) and always always had "unforseen difficulties" when putting in for Ammo resupply. At one point our troop was down to less than 300 rounds. 300 Rounds.

So the point was made to him by NCO's much higher than myself, that since we can't seem to get 5.56 we was gonna use whatever we could, it was a "health and safety" issue for all involved, mostly his.

The thing I HATE about the SPAS-12 AND some other semi-auto shotguns is you have to push on that that damn annoying bolt release button to load them. Mine does not have the larger mushroom size button some models have and I can see why they came up with it. I just know loading them is a bitch and more difficult then say a typical pump gun on the move. Still seeing a U.S. soldier running around with a SPAS-12 would have been a awesome sight.

[waiting4something]

When I worked for the DOD we had two types of Remington 870's. One was a Remington 870 Mark series that had the bayonet mount sleeve, 20 inch barrel, 3 shot tube extension, and a parkerized finish. The other one was a Wingmaster Magnum with a 18 inch barrel, 2 shot extension, and blued finish. I always requested the Mark version, because it was cooler.

When I worked for the USMC, I never even fired a shotgun except for riot training where we shot some Mossberg 500 MILS with rubber slugs. The only other time I had a shotgun in my had was very brief class on the M1014 Benelli that just came out at the time. I saw some PMO Marines armed with them in Oki and that was about it for my shotgun experience there. I know Marine Security Forces had the full size Mossberg 590's with the bayonet lug, heat shield, and 8+1 capacity, if they still have them I don't know.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always a pleasure to read your work. I think you caught the high points.

The SAS pioneered a couple of loads in Malaya; a 12g slug with three buck shot (buck and ball) and a mixed load of buck and bird shot (I want to say no.3 bird shot, but I'm not sure), the latter was useful in jungle terrain.

It was always funny when inspecting an arms room to see the number of private purchase shotguns that were stored there. It always seemed that just about every vehicle commander intended to carry one, just in case.

Might add that as a note but I did try to avoid non-US.

Completely different policy here! Our QM would have a fit if he saw that!

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by James Langham

A quick article about US military use of shotguns. Anyone who can add info please let me know.

First off the Ciener Ultimate Over/Under was as far as my research can tell me the first underbarreled shotgun that was semi-mass produced. As the first one I can verify as a date was Billy's Underbarreled Mossberg in the 1985 filmed "Predator". It used a conector weilded to the barrel that attached to the bayonette lug and a yoke that bolted to the back of the shotgun and replaced the forward reciver pin. I have unconfirmed reports that it started to slit the riciver of an M16/AR15 after about 2,000 rounds.

The latter KAC Masterkey uses a M203 mount and as far as I have heard won't destroy the host weapon.

The C-more assessory shotgun is the M26LSS I belive.

Other than that it's pretty good.

[HorseSoldier]

For whatever it's worth, all ours in my last unit were Mossberg 500s with almost all of them converted to pistol grip only format for breaching.

For breaching we used #9 birdshot, which is widely available in the US ammunition system. The only times I saw Hatton rounds were when we did some training with some Tier One guys. White side SF used #9 shot and it was effective and acceptably safe for breaching.

The other round we had routine access to was 00 buck (9 pellet). Way less fun to shoot than the eight pellet reduced recoil load issued for my police shotgun.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

First off the Ciener Ultimate Over/Under was as far as my research can tell me the first underbarreled shotgun that was semi-mass produced. As the first one I can verify as a date was Billy's Underbarreled Mossberg in the 1985 filmed "Predator". It used a conector weilded to the barrel that attached to the bayonette lug and a yoke that bolted to the back of the shotgun and replaced the forward reciver pin. I have unconfirmed reports that it started to slit the riciver of an M16/AR15 after about 2,000 rounds.

The latter KAC Masterkey uses a M203 mount and as far as I have heard won't destroy the host weapon.

The C-more assessory shotgun is the M26LSS I belive.

Other than that it's pretty good.

I have never seen any attachment piece on the the over/under in the movie Predator. I always wondered how they did it. My guess is they just used some kind of glue on the forend of the M16 and the Mossberg 500 receiver. In one scene of the film you can see Billy just caring the M16 without the Mossberg. I'm thinking this is why you never see him fire the shotgun in the movie. the most you see, is him work the action in the climatic everyone lay waste to the jungle scene.

[waiting4something]

I had read online that the probelm with the Ciener Ultimate over/under was that the recoil of the 12 gauge would start the inlarge the front takedown pin holes of M16 lower receiver. 8 years ago I called up the company trying to purchase this mounting system, but they said they no longer produced them. I also wanted to do that belt feed AR-15 conversion, but they stopped doing that too. I ended up purchasing a Knight Armament Masterkey to get over this itch I had, from seeing the movie Predator when I was a kid.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I have never seen any attachment piece on the the over/under in the movie Predator. I always wondered how they did it. My guess is they just used some kind of glue on the forend of the M16 and the Mossberg 500 receiver. In one scene of the film you can see Billy just caring the M16 without the Mossberg. I'm thinking this is why you never see him fire the shotgun in the movie. the most you see, is him work the action in the climatic everyone lay waste to the jungle scene.

Look again. the M500 has a lug to attach the barrel to the shotgun to the bayonete lug of the rifle. As far as Billy fireing the shotgun there is a part of the raid on the jungle camp scene where they do put rounds through the shotgun.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Predator#Mossberg_500

[waiting4something]

So they just toke a piece of steel and welded it to a shotgun barrel and bayonet lug? I'll have to watch the film again and do alot of freeze framing. I can't see anything attaching the 2 receivers together. Not saying your wrong, you are the movie guru after all. But what about the scene after the raid when they are bugging out of the area and Billy has only a M16. Was that shot before they did the welding of the barrel to the bayonet lug, or did the weld break and they said "screw it", "shoot the scene anyway no one will notice". I always figuired they used a adhessive and the hot humid weather of Mexico caused it to fall off. On a side note one of my Ar-15's has the same handguards that Billy's rifle has. They are not typical M16A2 style.

[copeab]

What, no mention of the 24-shot Manville 12-bore?