Are European handguns rubbish?

[Caradhras]

Just a quick question from one who has no idea.

I was reading Debt of Honour (Tom Clancy) and a CIA agent needed a handgun and could only get one from a Russian. It was some low calibre affair (22 or less?) which his was not happy with..fair enough. But the charachter makes some statement to his friend in the realms of 'the europeans dont know how to make handguns'. I find this hard to believe and thought - I know some people who will know for sure

[dragoon500ly]

Nope!

Europe has long been home to some of the world's finest firearms designers (and one European company, Beretta, is not only the oldest firearms company, but is the oldest company). I'm afraid that Clancy is a tad "mistaken".

[Panther Al]

On the subject of European handguns:

SiG, HK, Browning, FN, Walther, Berretta, Hammerelli... Yep. They don't know handguns...

[Raellus]

I would hazzard to say that the Europeans make more high quality handguns than anyone else in the world. Panther Al's list says it all (and don't forget Glock).

Perhaps the character was referring to Russians, specifically. Their handguns are weak, to say the least.

[simonmark6]

He might have been commenting on how difficult it is to purchase a decent handgun illegally in Europe. Many of the under the table arms dealers are Russian and generally sell things like the Baikal, a gas firing pistol converted to 9mmP and coming with a dodgy silencer. By all accounts those aren't great guns.

It's not totally accurate, however, a mate of mine is a Police Inspector dealing with gun crime in this area. The last arms dealer they arrested was carrying a couple of Kalashnikovs, several re-activated Ingrams, three .357 Colts as well as a selection of 9mm autos. By all accounts the crappy .22s and Saturday Night Specials are entry level shooters with anyone but the sixteen-year old wannabes take whatever they can get.

All of this is still very dangerous, in the UK you can get shot dead for having a piece of wood in a plastic bag. Just possessing an illegal gun carries a sentence that is longer than murdering someone. Other European countries are similarly draconian.

That said, you'd expect a CIA agent to have better contacts.

[dragoon500ly]

Hummm, there is one handgun that does make you wonder just what the designer was thinking....the P9S is a decent little pistol, but the mag release is on the bottom of the grip....little hard to do a rapid mag change!

I'll stick to my old Colt Mark IV Series 70......

[natehale1971]

Brad Thor's first book Lions of Lucerene (sp) has his main character in Swiss Confederation hunting for the kidnappers of the President. And he needed a gun but couldn't buy a real one... so he bought an airsoft pistol of the pistol he really wanted to get... because he felt the appearence of hving a gun was better than not having a gun....

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I would hazzard to say that the Europeans make more high quality handguns than anyone else in the world. Panther Al's list says it all (and don't forget Glock).

Perhaps the character was referring to Russians, specifically. Their handguns are weak, to say the least.

I am trying very hard to forget Glock... Oh, and add Steyr to the list of great pistols as well.

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Hummm, there is one handgun that does make you wonder just what the designer was thinking....the P9S is a decent little pistol, but the mag release is on the bottom of the grip....little hard to do a rapid mag change!

I'll stick to my old Colt Mark IV Series 70......

Mag releases on the bottom of the grip is a very european thing: Goes along with what we consider a pistol is supposed to be used for and what they think:

For the Americans, Pistols are a combat tool: meant to be used in combat with the goal of killing as many people as fast as possible using a minimum of ammo. Hence, the magnums, the .45's, etc...

For the Europeans, Pistols are secondly a back up weapon for when the shit has well and truly hit the fan, and primarily as an Officers weapon; a status symbol more than a combat tool. A holdover from when officers came from an official Officer (or Noble- sometimes the same thing) class. Hence, Mag capacities are typically lower, as well as the use of lighter ammo compared to the US. Hence, the .32's, .380's, the 9mm's, etc... They don't want a heavy rugged massive pistol: something nice and light is much easier to tote around if they never plan on using it in the first place.

Of course, thats just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions... and to be fair, Europe is coming around to the US point of view on pistols.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Hummm, there is one handgun that does make you wonder just what the designer was thinking....the P9S is a decent little pistol, but the mag release is on the bottom of the grip....little hard to do a rapid mag change!

I'll stick to my old Colt Mark IV Series 70......

Mmmm... the P9. One of the first HK Pistols, with the P4 being first. Its action was, and is, unique - basically the G3 roller lock system shrunk down to fit in a 9mm pistol. This is one I always wanted to get my hands on, but never had the chance - or when I did, the pistol was junk and not worth the money.

The P9 was Single Action with an exposed hammer during the Prototype stage, though when it entered production the hammer was no longer exposed. Also, a small number of select fire versions of the prototype was built, as far as I know none was actually produced commercially - you can tell if its a select fire version by the lever mounted on the frame underneath the slide mounted safety. Less than 500 P9's was built: making them quite rare.

As an aside on the P4: It has a interesting lineage. Its based heavily on the Mauser HsC: which shouldn't be surprising. The main designers of the pistol was Alex Seidel and Tilo Möller. Seidel, in addition to founding HK, was one of the major designers of the HsC, Möller later on developed this 9mm Roller Locked Submachine gun for HK that had some minor success....

The P9S was a double action version, and made up the bulk of all production. In addition to the basic P9S, there was a few selective fire prototypes made, that used a stock design that later saw the light of day with the VP70. Also built was a number chambered in 7.65x21.5 for sale in Italy, as well as sport and target models. There is talk of a .22 conversion kit, but the only time I have seen pics of one was of factory prototypes.

Also on the statement of unsafe guns because of the lack of an external safety and double action designs... well... lets just say the P7 has a rep for being *very* safe, and falls into that category - though you could argue that the cocking lever counts as a safety after a fashion.

[headquarters]

Kind of an impossible question to answer really - yes some are crap either in design, production quality or both - some are not. This goes for any product anywhere - the US included.

Think of the vast number of clones available out there. Also think of the kinship many - if not most modern handguns share. ( Much like bolt action rifles and the Mauser system)

Many designs are copied /licensed abroad. Take the CZ75 ,made in China as well as in the US by Springfield.

The M1911 too - in Norway we made them under license from 1914 - 1947 or so. ( Yes - some were made by the nazi occupation forces and have the nazi markings and all.I dont know about operational service-probably little as .45 was not in the logistics systems in quantity in the Wehrmacht). HP35s were used in numbers by Germans as well as other nations during WWII , the TT33 Tokarev takes a leaf out of Brownings book bearing some kinship to an earlier Colt automatic - the model 1907 I believe. I also read that a British horse regiment was issued Lugers in 1909. The C96 Mauser pistol was reportedly used by US troops in the Phillipines in the early 1900 rebellions there.)

Anyways - the role of the handgun in combat has differed over the ages, military tactic has changed over time and along with technological advances. Normally all modern armies have adopted tactics used by others if found to be efficient -be it US or European.

Sometimes the technological development caught the decision makers unawares. The 9x19 mm is an efficient combat round and today its maybe the most common caliber. The .45 was more popular before - the tendency has been going towards lighter calibers in small arms over the last 100 - 75 years though. That said - highly trained professionals may have preferences towards this or that caliber. Many shooters have such preferances.

Also it should be considered that economy plays a role. A handgun doesnt give the same bang for buck as a rifle. So if arming a force on a budget - rifles will be bought.

I carried a Glock for app 2 years as a service weapon. Never had a problem even though I did let it suffer some mistreatment from time to time.Mud,dust,water,snow - as long as the barrel was free it went bang. Some stoppages occurred. Hardly any automatic has never jammed be it ammo,mag or fingers the culprit. Perfectly safe to carry loaded in the proper holster. Of course teaching the index finger were to stay until it was time to fire is paramount. No finger operations to botch getting of a shot in a stressed situation -just draw find the trigger and let loose. Saves time and effort when training people to use it.

The CZ75 is reliable and sturdy in my book-not as user friendly as the Glock though.

It is always going to be a trade off between the properties of the cartridge/projectile and the other stats on your gun. You can get a single shot Thompson Contender in .30-06. You can get a FNfiveseven with a 21 round mag or so.