Homosexuals in the military

[pmulcahy11b]

<Split from Female combat soldiers in T2K thread>

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Politically that might now be possible, but I just can't see too many women being assigned to combat roles. It'll be a good generation or so before there's more than the odd token woman in any one battalion.
The testosterone laden, male dominated combat arms will need a whole new mindset before it occurs.

Though it's already started to a small extent, it will be a fight similar to integrating the services and allowing gays in the military. Once it starts in earnest, it will drag on for decades.

And unfortunately, gays in the military will find that their problems are not now solved; their going to be the subject of hate crimes, hazing, bullshit details, and prejudice and hate from the senior NCOs and officers -- and possibly some of the mid-level ones as well. Ironically, polls of the troops indicate that the enlisted and junior NCOs, and junior officers -- Captain and below -- don't really care if their fellow soldier is gay, except in 20% of the responses. The higher the rank of the soldier, the more likely he is to be prejudiced against gays in the military.

And for the record, I knew fellow soldiers who were gay at every posting, in every unit I've ever been in, the whole time I was in the Army. I couldn't care less. My attitude was pretty much, "Do your job, pull your weight, do better than your best, and don't be a troublemaker -- and your personal life is your business." I counseled some gay soldiers, and didn't break their trust by telling my superiors about it. Yeah, I broke the rules in that respect, but I felt I was morally correct in that attitude and that the Army wasn't.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

And unfortunately, gays in the military will find that their problems are not now solved; their going to be the subject of hate crimes, hazing, bullshit details, and prejudice and hate from the senior NCOs and officers -- and possibly some of the mid-level ones as well. Ironically, polls of the troops indicate that the enlisted and junior NCOs, and junior officers -- Captain and below -- don't really care if their fellow soldier is gay, except in 20% of the responses. The higher the rank of the soldier, the more likely he is to be prejudiced against gays in the military.

A long time ago we could have replaced the term "gays" in your post with "blacks" and your post would still make sense. The early days for any change will be rocky, but eventually it will become as normal as previous transitions. Society is changing for the better and as each year passes, just like on civie street, it will be a little bit easier for gays to be integrated and accepted.

The army will get over the fact that nobody should have to hide something that is as natural as skin color.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

A long time ago we could have replaced the term "gays" in your post with "blacks" and your post would still make sense. The early days for any change will be rocky, but eventually it will become as normal as previous transitions. Society is changing for the better and as each year passes, just like on civie street, it will be a little bit easier for gays to be integrated and accepted.

The army will get over the fact that nobody should have to hide something that is as natural as skin color.

My gaming group in the Navy touched on this subject alot... because two of our players were gay and in a relationship, and everyone in the group knew it and supported them. And when ever we would talk about the entire issue back when all this started in 1993, they said that they wouldn't want things to be out in the open because it would make an issue of their sexuality. Reducing their humanity and making them nothing more than... their sexual orientation, when they were so much more than that.

And when "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue" came out they were happy with it. Because the fact of who you sleep with shouldn't be an issue and shouldn't be paraded about (because even hetrosexual displays of affection or sexuality NOT ALLOWED in uniform), and as long as you didn't force it on others no one did or said anything about it.

Hell, I never liked it when people would start talking about their sexticapdes, and then expected others to start and describe theirs... and when i would beg off, i'd get hazed because i was a virgin who was waiting for someone i loved to be with.

I knew 75% of the gays that where in any command that i was assigned, namely because I was would end up getting hit on by them on a routine basis (my sexual naivate for some reason seemed to give them the idea i was gay). And they'd be terrified when i would say "I'm fallatered, but I'm straight..." that I was going to turn them in, but they would became close friends when I said "Who you sleep with, is none of my business. It's something between you, your partner (or partners) and God. I'm not putting myself in a position to judge... because I ain't God."

And this would cause them to tell the other gays and lesbians that I was someone who wouldn't make their sexuality a big deal, and I wouldn't report them. And unfortuantely, that caused one of them to keep hitting on me and not take "NO" for an answer. He stalked me, and sexually assaulted me.

This situation is NOTHING like that of intergation... remember that it was Woodrow Wilson who had segreated the Armed Forces and the federal government services. It was an act done by a racist whose so-called 'Progressive' ideals would inspire the Nazis (not just their racial ideology, but their mastery and use of Propaganda to sway the masses to support anything the government leaders wanted).

It really gets to me when the 'in your face' types who make what ever hypenated group that they are more important than everything else. If you are Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender or Questioning it doesn't matter to me. Hell, It's NONE OF ANYONE ELSES BUSINESS. So please stop forcing it down others throats.

Who someone sleeps with or who they get married to just shouldn't be the governments or anyone elses business. It's something that is theirs, their partner (or partners) and God's business... and NO ONE else's business.

And before anyone attacks me for saying this... just know a little bit more about me.

My Aunt Carol was a lesbian and I adored her. Our family was really close, and when she killed her lover Ruth it really caused our family major heartache. Not only did we have to deal with the trial that could have been a death penality case (something that all of us, inculding Aunt Carol supported)... we had to go into the prosecutors bringing out Aunt Carol and Ruth's entire relationship and everything that went with it out in the open.

The fact that Ruth was abusive to Carol and her own children wasn't the hard part to deal with. It was the other things that came out (we really didn't need the fact that Aunt Ruth's oldest son was sexually molesting my male cousin being released to the media). They brought out all kinds of things in an effort to use them to give Aunt Carol motive for killing Ruth.

Trying to make it look like it had been premeditated murder, when the fact of the matter was nothing like that... Aunt Carol and Ruth had gotten into a fight about Ruth's youngest son (who was 14, and she was going to throw him out of the house) while they were at a local gaybar and had been drinking just way too much. It had ended with Ruth throwing Aunt Carol across the bar and breaking a table. Ruth was then thrown out of the bar while they took care of Aunt Carol, and because Aunt Carol had the car keys she started walking the three miles back home. When Aunt Carol woke up she went and got into her car and headed home, and she said that she never rembered hitting Aunt Ruth nor having dragged her dead body under the car all the way home.

After she was found guilty and senticed to prison, we would travel the four hours to go see her every month, and my mom and grandmom would have to put up with the security checks to get into the prison... and I would have to sit with my sisters (one was a toddler and the other an infant) because we were not allowed inside to see Aunt Carol because we were too young and it was a max security prison. We didn't get to see her until they transfered her to a minimum security prision during the last years of her sentice before she was finally paroled.

When Aunt Carol died earlier this year i put my broken body in a tiny car and rode for 4 hours one way for her funeral. That's how much i loved her and cared for her.

Oh... I also have two 'adopted' brothers who are openingly gay, and many of my stances comes through our relationship together.

Now, I recently tried to give an 'intersexed' person a word of encouragement... and all i got out of it was a flipping hatefilled stalker that the police had to deal with, because they accused ME of being the one filled with hate because of my political affiliation when it was THEM who was attacking me with nothing but HATE.

So none of this is coming from hate... but a philosophy that there are things that are public, things that are private. And that if you allow someone to take a single part of you, and identify you ONLY by that... you are allowing them to control you.

John Wayne said it best...

The Hyphen

The hyphen. Webster’s dictionary defines as a symbol used to divide a compound word or a single word.

So it seems to me that when a man calls himself Afro-American or Mexican-American or Italian-American or Irish-American or Jewish-American, what he’s saying is “I’m a divided American.”

Well, we all came from other places, different creeds, different races, to form a nation, to become as one. Yet look at the harm a line has done, a simple little line, and, yet, as divisive as a line can get. A crooked cross the Nazis flew, and the Russian hammer and sickle, too – time bombs in the lives of Man.

But none of these could ever fan the flames of hatred faster than the hyphen.

The Russian hammer built a wall that locks men’s hearts from freedom’s call. The crooked cross flew overhead above 20 million tragic dead, among them, men from this great nation who died for Freedom’s preservation.

A hyphen is a line that’s small. It can be a bridge or it can be a wall. A bridge can save you lots of time; a wall you always have to climb.

The road to Liberty lies true. The hyphen’s use is up to you.

Used as a bridge, it can span all the differences of Man. Being free in mind and soul should be our most important goal.

But, if you use the hyphen as a wall, you’ll make your life mean and small.

An American is a special breed whose People came to her in need. They came to her that they might find a world where they’d have peace of mind, where men are equal, and (something more), stand taller than they stood before.

So you be wise in your decision, and that little line won’t cause division. Let’s join hands with one another, for in this land, each man’s your brother. United we stand; divided we fall.

We’re Americans. That says it all.

And even if you aren't an Ameircan... this goes for your nations as well.

Look at what the type of multicultralism that divides people has brought to Europe. You have enclaves of extremists that are being breed in government sponsored poverty and misery mills that natives of their own country are terrified of going into (or entire parts of their home towns that they are being forced out of thanks to racially motivated violence against them). This is happening all across Western Europe & Great Britain, it's blatantly obvious for anyone willing to admit it to themselves.

The simple fact is this...

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." - Abraham Lincoln

And this new policy is taking something that should be PRIVATE and is making it PUBLIC. It's making it to where the types of people at the Gay Pride Parades who dress in a nun's habit and invade a Catholic Church hurling profanty and other epitahs at everyone... or run around naked in fetish gear and perform actual homosexual sex acts in front of children can join the armed forces and make EVERYTHING about their sexual orientation.

And all this does is make for a hostile work enviroment for EVERYONE. It can make morale a major problem, and the first time one of the 'in your face' types does something that is a major violoation of the UCMJ, it's going to be made into a federal case and they'll be screaming that it's all about homophobia and not the fact that they did something wrong.

All this current situation does now is make an issue that should have remained private in the first place. The military is not a place to be playing with 'social engineering' because any mistakes can end up getting alot of people killed.

There are those where who supported the idea of Summery Executions during T2k for 'troublemakers'.

So think about that for a second.

Is any unit going to be able to handle someone who is so "in your face" about their sexuality that it becomes uncomfortable for others who don't share their sexuality in the unit? And what's going to be the answer to that problem. Is the fact they are causing morale problems going to be dealt with without cries of Homophobia?

[Fusilier]

I don't think most are trying to make it anyone's business anymore than a hetero person does. They just don't want to have to keep it hidden in fear of losing their jobs for something that isn't job performance related.

Just because you don't have to hide something doesn't mean it's becomes an issue. Only other people with issues with it do that in most cases. Sort of like complaining that it is being forced down people's throats... as opposed to what hetero people do in public.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I don't think most are trying to make it anyone's business anymore than a hetero person does. They just don't want to have to keep it hidden in fear of losing their jobs for something that isn't job performance related.

Just because you don't have to hide something doesn't mean it's becomes an issue. Only other people with issues with it do that in most cases. Sort of like complaining that it is being forced down people's throats... as opposed to what hetero people do in public.

thats just it. We aren't talking about MOST. We are talking about those that make it an issue and force the issue. The 'DADTDP' policy allowed homosexuals to serve. The proof is that they have already been serving in the Armed Forces. The 'Identity Politics' that puts a single facit of life as the sole way of being identified is what is being used here. There are people who live their lives quietly and do what they do without anyone knowing anything about it, are NOT the ones we're talking about.

We're talking about the ones who throw it in everyone else's face and makes even those who might support the idea of what they are wanting feel dirty and discusted with their actions. You know, the type of person who wouldn't take no for an answer. The type of people who make it a federal case with the accusations that everything is against them because of something that is a private matter that THEY had made a public issue.

[Fusilier]

Oh ok.

However I do think there is a fringe minority with every type of group out there. Some people just want attention, even negative attention, whether it is about their sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. A rule of silence doesn't seem to help.

[Targan]

There was one gay and one bi important NPCs in my last campaign. None of the PCs cared at all. There were some problems with a pair of redneck important NPCs harassing and bullying a gay NPC in the group but the CO warned them off and that was that. There was also some tension due to unrequited lust but these things just added to the flavour of the game IMO.

There was also a nasty incident of homosexual rape against one of the PCs. He was able to kill all of his attackers though so that somewhat mitigated the psychological damage he suffered. After that the PC group's hostile activities against the CIA in the NYC-Jersey area REALLY ramped up. Vengence was definitely had.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Targan

There was one gay and one bi important NPCs in my last campaign. None of the PCs cared at all. There were some problems with a pair of redneck major NPCs but the CO warned them off and that was that. There was also some tension due to unrequited lust but these things just added to the flavour of the game IMO.

There was also a nasty incident of homosexual rape against one of the PCs. He was able to kill all of his attackers though so that somewhat mitigated the psychological damage he suffered. After that the PC group's hostile activities against the CIA in the NYC-Jersey area REALLY ramped up. Vengence was definitely had.

In the groups ive played T2k (TMP, and other games as well)... we had many characters who were Homosexual or Bisexual.

In one campaign, we had the senior officer who was a bisexual woman who had a 'group marriage' with sister-wifes and a male character.

We had an openly gay male who had volunteered when his brother had been killed during the start of Euro-Soviet War when a soviet airforce bombing attack had hit their home in the UK. He was probly the most 'conservative' of the characters (he had the statement of "Don't judge me, I won't judge you" tattooed on his upper arm in this really detailed scorll work on what looked like a Coat of Arms).

We had another openly gay character in another campaign who was flamboyantly gay... and looked like a burly lumberjack. When we saw the movie the Birdcage most of us thought of him (the character played by Robin Williams).

We had a run-in with a downed Royal Air Force pilot that was a lesbian who had set up an all-female armed camp that was composed mostly of polish and east german civilin women, and a few female military personnel from NATO states, Poland and East Germany. Most of the women were scared of men because of gang rapes done by Soviets (whom they didn't even offer chances of surrender, they just killed them).

In another campaign, we had a gay PC whose player kind of went off the deep end, and used personal feelings to have his character to rape and mutilate a PC controlled NPC to get back at a percieved insult IRL. It did not end well... in the game or out. the Master-at-Arms basicly showed up and a captain's mass came out of that one.

I've gamed with many groups over the year. And we've had people of all kinds of orientations and ideals represented around the gaming table and in game worlds... and the after game discssions were always interesting to listen into.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I'm just asking if they are doing all of this as you say, or is it only speculation on future events.

Yes, there are people who are doing this already... because of DADTDP we don't know if they are active duty military when they do it. But there are active duty military who were protesting DADTDP by handcuffing themselves to the fence of the white house, and the Obama administration had the press cleared from the area so they couldn't see it while the Park Police came in and arrested them!

Do a google search for gays storm church. Or a search for gay pride parade sex acts. and you'll find news stories of the kinds of things happening that worries people. The Identity Politic Activists put their single issue ABOVE everything else. My openly gay adopted brother is terrified of something like this happening because of the kind of backlash that will come from it. He was horrified when he saw the news reports of a group of gay activists mob a little grandmother who didn't even try to defend herself, because he was terrified that it could cause a backlash against gays everywhere. He had been involved in activism for gay rights for years before he was pushed out of it by the kind of radicals that I am talking about who are now going to be able to join the armed forces and cause problems.

Don't believe me it can't happen?

There are articles about anti-war protestors who have joined the armed forces just so they could use the fact they were active duty to protest the war by going AWOL saying they did not want to participate in 'an illegal war'

when politicans start using the armed forces for political means, it opens up the way for people to come in and do things that will get people killed. And when that happens they try to blame it on the miltiary personnel involved, and not hold those responsible who set things into motion. It's like charging the bullet for the murder that has been committed, while letting the person who pulled the trigger walk.

DADTDP was a policy that allowed homosexuals to serve, and ask any active duty personnel who've served during that period and they'll tell you that they've more than likely known homosexual service members who lived their lives without it having been a problem.

Hell... the first three years of my time in the Navy there wasn't DADTDP, and i knew personally over a hundred gays who served at the various commands I had been assigned too. And in several of those cases, it was an open secret about their sexuality. And as long as they didn't make it an issue it wasn't a problem. Just like Paul has said about his counseling of gay members when he was in.

Need I say again that my gaming group when i was in the navy had a gay couple in it, and that we gamed every day when we were at sea? We didn't have the kind of communications methods today back then, so they couldn't have been civilians who played via Sykpe.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Yes, there are people who are doing this already... because of DADTDP we don't know if they are active duty military when they do it.

I'm not sure I follow. You say soldiers are acting out and doing acts of social disobedience... but don't know if they were active duty? They are unidentified?

Originally Posted by natehale1971

But there are active duty military who were protesting DADTDP by handcuffing themselves to the fence of the white house, and the Obama administration had the press cleared from the area so they couldn't see it while the Park Police came in and arrested them!

Do you have a source for that?

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Don't believe me it can't happen? (about gays storming churches)

No, I didn't say that. I'm not interested in civilians though. I'm discussing gays in the military since I am interested about the current situation within the forces.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

DADTDP was a policy that allowed homosexuals to serve...

...until they were discovered by a superior or someone who didn't support with their orientation?

Originally Posted by natehale1971

And as long as they didn't make it an issue it wasn't a problem.

That's great to hear. I'm happy to know there are people like that. I'm disturbed though that others were not so open minded and it resulted in the end of careers for some people.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Need I say again that my gaming group when i was in the navy had a gay couple in it.

Not at all. I don't have an issue or any questions relating to your personal experiences with gays.

[natehale1971]

What? You don't remember when 12 service members were protesting and the Obama White House ordered the Park Police to force the Press to get as far away as they could so they couldn't record what was happening?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...42-503544.html

As for not knowing if they were active duty... the fact that there were people at gay pride parades wearing military uniforms doing some really strange things, and that no one was able to find out if they were active military isn't that hard to understand.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

What? You don't remember...

I don't recall saying I didn't remember. I asked for a source. Please try to not put words in my mouth okay?

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I don't recall saying I didn't remember. I asked for a source. Please try to not put words in my mouth okay?

then try to have the same curtosy for others.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

As for not knowing if they were active duty... the fact that there were people at gay pride parades wearing military uniforms doing some really strange things, and that no one was able to find out if they were active military isn't that hard to understand.

There seems to be some confusion. I asked about a source about the white house hand cuffs. However, I was then referring to this (which was the focal point)...

Originally Posted by natehale1971

While this is an isolated incident, there are homosexuals going over the top at Gay Pride Parades and storming churches on so many occassions that it causes police to have to deal with them.

I then asked, "Are they soldiers?"

So, I am asking did soldiers participate in the storming of churches? Or is the most heinous thing they did was handcuff themselves to the railing before the ban was lifted?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Don't worry SGT, this is the rest of the story...

First I am not after you. However I am going tear this piece a new one.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Army says troops wrongly punished for skipping concert
A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded.

Took a year to cover their asses and re-assign the guilty, and probably assign some of the wrongfully punished (vocal too) to assignments to appease them.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

By STEVE SZKOTAK
The Associated Press
Related
RICHMOND, Va. — A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded.

Right. A Staff Sergeant. No one E-7 and above in a trainee unit was aware. …………….. Really.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

When the Army learned the soldiers were punished, the company commander apologized to them the next day, according to the investigation's findings, released Tuesday to The Associated Press.

Ooooooooo sorry about those Civil Rights, ya kinda like those Freedoms you been protecting , but not like the Army says. An Apology. That’s a start, not a completion.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

The actions of the staff sergeant, who was not named, were referred back to his battalion commander for nonjudicial action, according to Col. Daniel Williams, a spokesman for the Army's Document and Training Command. He said any punishment, if it occurred, would be kept confidential.

BAM! Your damn skippy it went onto the Battalion Commander. It is not a Trial! There will be no Witnesses, NO Examination, No Cross Examination, and No Jury. The Guilty never even set foot in Court.
Total and Complete SHAM.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

The sergeant's actions in May 2010 at Fort Eustis in Newport News, Va., were not consistent with the voluntary nature of the concerts, Williams said.
"The command did not find sufficient evidence to indicate there was any malicious intent and therefore deferred any discipline down to the battalion command," Williams said.

Bullshit. The CoC was involved, if you don’t find Jesus, you won’t find promotion. That Staff Sergeant had many layers between him and the Company Commander. Let alone the CO probably want to “Show more participation, in front of the CG.”

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which first reported complaints by the soldiers, described the investigation's conclusion as typical for the military.
"Blame some lower-ranking enlisted guy who didn't know any better," he said. "That is just a completely inappropriate and disgraceful statement."

Consistent with my experience.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Weinstein called the Christian concerts "an absolute attempt to establish fundamental Christianity in the military."

I am just surprised it has been allowed to come out of the background. Little tidbits like the ACOG scandal make you realize how broad it is.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Williams described them as "nondenominational with no particular religious affiliation."

Why am I funding this! This is tax payer money, and Army budget! That damn money should have been spent on training ammo, better Leadership schools, more vehicles, better Single Soldier housing, buying Training land in areas similar to where wars are fought now.
I am seething. So angry I am having a hard time typing.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Two soldiers who were punished told the AP they felt pressured to attend a performance by the Christian rock group BarlowGirl, as part of what was billed as the "Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concerts."

I am sure that it was hinted at by all Levels of their Command. Make the CG happy, get your ticket punched.
Mandatory fun day has become mandatory Jesus camp day.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

The soldiers said the staff sergeant told 200 men in their barracks they could either attend or remain confined there. They were told to not use their cellphones or personal computers and to clean up their living area.
The investigation did not dispute the soldiers' statements.

Uh, huh. You can tailor your questions to get a specific range of answers. It is something you learn so you don’t make a mistake, however it is a tool if one is being disingenuous.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Williams said the concerts, which continue to be staged, are strictly voluntary, as they had been in May 2010.

Why are they continuing! Why! The US Army is not a spiritual force. There are Chaplains and Chapels to serve for those that desire it, however the US Army is not Gods Army. This flies completely in the face of the Anti-Establishment Clause . Being Cheeky by naming is a spiritual anything, when it is clearly Evangelical and intended to be from the start.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

The sergeant, Williams said, "marched a unit over to the Spiritual Fitness Concert thinking he was doing the right thing. He found out a very short time after that, no, that was not the right thing to do. He was corrected."
About 20, including several Muslims, refused to attend based on religious beliefs, the solder said.
Since then, the Army has reinforced the volunteer nature of the concerts through e-mails and training, Williams said.

Punishments were likely suspended (can’t remember what it is called) and he was shuffled around for a bit. Then he will be rewarded for being a good ol boy. I expect he will retire as an E-8 if he keeps out of the Papers.

[natehale1971]

If you think that story is bad SGT... here's something from the other end of the spectrum (and from things i've heard, it's not the first time something like this has happened).

Firefighters forced into 'gay' parade win case
Jury finds San Diego subjected 4 to 'simulated sex acts' in 2007 event

18 February 2009

Four San Diego firefighters who were ordered by their department to appear in the city's 2007 homosexual "Pride Parade" have been awarded $5,000 each for emotional damages from the event, where they were forced to witness "simulated sex acts."

"Government employees should never be forced to participate in events or acts that violate their sincerely held beliefs," said Charles LiMandri, the West Coast regional director for the Thomas More Law Center. He's also affiliated with the Alliance Defense Fund.

"We are pleased with the jury's verdict recognizing the firefighters' right to abstain from activities that they consider morally offensive and that subject them to harassment," LiMandri said.

The jury verdict yesterday came in the case brought by Capt. John Ghiotto and firefighters Jason Hewitt, Alex Kane and Chad Allison.

Ghiotto was awarded $14,200, with $5,000 for emotional distress, while others were awarded $5,000 apiece, according to KGTV-TV in San Diego.

LiMandri said the main goal was that firefighters, all Christians, no longer will be subjected to such treatment.

The firefighters had been ordered to participate in the July 21, 2007, promotion of homosexuality and explicit sex.

WND reported earlier when attorney LiMandri made clear the liability held by the city of San Diego.

"These men were sexually harassed in clear violation of San Diego's sexual harassment code," LiMandri said. "Further, the California Constitution's freedom of speech provision prohibits compelled speech. What the firefighters were ordered to do was endorse what goes on at this parade through their participation in it."

The case detailed how the firefighters were sexually harassed through lewd cat calls and obscene gestures at the event, which was replete with sexual displays and graphic images.

The men then suffered harassment and retaliation after complaining to superiors, the complaint said.

"Many people may mistakenly think the 'gay pride' parade is merely a 'fun' event," said ADF Senior Counsel Joe Infranco, who is co-counsel in the case. "They never would have imagined the crude sexual harassment these firefighters were forced to endure. But in truth, the goal of homosexual behavior advocates is to undermine society's long-held values. They continue to seek this, whether by demanding participation in 'gay pride' parades or by trampling the democratic process to redefine marriage."

Following the launch of the lawsuit, the city changed its fire department policy so firefighters no longer will be forced to participate in the promotion.

LiMandri said the firefighters had expressed concerns before the parade about the sexual harassment prevalent there and said they did not want to appear to be endorsing homosexuality, which violated their own religious beliefs.

Instead of recognizing the concerns, the city "informed my clients that if they did not march, they could face disciplinary action."

It was the second trial. The first, in October, ended when only eight jurors agreed the firefighters had been mistreated. Nine are needed for an affirmative decision. LiMandri said the October trial left disturbing results, including a judge's ruling that the firefighters' freedom of speech was not violated.

"This was the case even though the courts have consistently held that participation in a gay pride parade is a form of constitutionally protected expressive conduct, and the right to speak on a controversial public issue includes the right not to be compelled to speak," he said.


Ghiotto reported in a statement, "While moving down the parade route we were subjected to verbal abuse, (show me your hose, you can put out my fire, give me mouth to mouth, flick you fireman) sexual gestures, (showing their penis, blowing kisses, grabbing their crotch, rubbing their nipples, tongue gestures, flipping us off)."

San Diego's fire chief, Tracy Jarman, is an open lesbian who called the parade a "fun event" in which "all employees are encouraged to participate."

Ghiotto had reported, "We were subject to this type of abuse and more throughout the parade route. You could not even look at the crowd without getting some type of sexual gesture. Even the Christian protesters were giving us grief for being a part of this. The experience left me feeling humiliated, embarrassed and offended.

"If any of my crew or I were to hang up pictures at the station of what we saw, we would be disciplined!" the firefighter said.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

If you point out where I did I will be happy to.

Then re-read the thread because i'm really getting tired of repeating myself. And I am not going to further hijack this thread. The Internet is FULL of news stories from valid news agencies that have covered this subject over the years. San Fran is notorious for the kinds of things happening that worries NOT JUST ME, but many in the Gay Community happening in the armed forces that will cause problems that will get people killed. If you can't understand that, then i'm sorry.

Now let's get this thread back on the subject of Female Combat Personnel.