Gerald Bull's Super Cannons...

[natehale1971]

I can't find that much about the Iraqi Project Babylon, where they gave Gerald Bull the chance to build his super cannons, and that Mossad had taken him out because they were afraid that Iraq would use them against Isreal... I am wondering just what would have happened if after Bull had been killed, that Hussien had continued to build the Super Cannon using all of the work that Bull had written down. A what if Bull knew someone would take him out, and he had written out all his work so that someone could continue his work if anything had happened to him.

Who would have been on the receiving end of the super cannon? would it have been a real threat to the US and Coalition forces during Operation Desert Storm.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Who would have been on the receiving end of the super cannon?

It was for the Iranians.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

would it have been a real threat to the US and Coalition forces during Operation Desert Storm.

No.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Who would have been on the receiving end of the super cannon? would it have been a real threat to the US and Coalition forces during Operation Desert Storm.

They would have a real threat to almost no one. They had very limited traverse and elevation, and therefore were very limited in the aiming department. They also had a very long minimum range, which further limited their utility.

[Panther Al]

Gerald Bull is something of a hero to me: Not because of his two supercannon's he built for Hussien (One of which was never finished because the Brits kept the last barrel sections from shipping), but for the other things he did. He dreamed of using a cannon to launch satellites into space: And he came by this honestly when he got his start first, as part of the HARP project (Imagine a 16" naval gun, with a extra barrel welded to the end) that whet his appetite for such - HARP came close to launching projectiles into space - and continued to when he was part of the Canadian Space Program (Yes, they had one). One of the things that he came up with was pure genius: Since they couldn't afford a wind tunnel, he took a surplus 25# gun, a metal scale model of the aircraft being tested, and shot it out the barrel into a smoky room, where high speed camera's would record the disturbances. Very Very clever. Not very good compared to a proper wind tunnel, but...

Then you have the 60's, when the US was looking at finding a new 155mm howitzer to equip the M109. We, the Americans, had a 33 Calibre piece that would reach out all of 18km. He, the Canadian, offered the GC45. A 45 Calibre piece that would reach out with the same ammo about 25km. Obviously, since he was Canadian, his gun was no where near good enough for us... *rolling of the eyes*. Instead, he and the Austrians got together, and started producing limited numbers of the same gun for sale to who ever wanted them. The South African's liked it: The Chinese bought more than a few, even the Russians got some. Now, The South Africans, while they had cash to pay, wasn't allowed to import anything due to the embargo's against it. But, they was fighting the nasty communists, so the CIA (reportedly, could have been any of the alphabet soup agencies) got with Dr. Bull, and made a deal where he could sneak the designs into South Africa, and even improve on them. Something like eaking 32km out of the same gun that was turned down by the US Army, because, after all, 18km range is clearly better than 32km.... Anyways. The South African Army had a problem. The D-30 Howitzer that the Cubans used was vastly superior to any gun they had - which was mostly 25 pounders. So they leapt at the chance for a modern gun system. Hence, the G-5/G-6. The worlds best howitzer/gun out there. One teeny tiny little problem though....

The South African's didn't mind selling the guns to anyone who could pay for them. And when Saddam bought a boatload of them (Hence during Desert Storm US Artillery was consistently outranged by more accurate guns - and finally the Army went, "Oh Shit. We done fucked up, and its time to get better guns..." Hence the shift to 39 Calibre ordinance was stepped up.... it wasn't till the Israeli's started asking about 52 Calibre guns that we adopted what they wanted to do and called it the Paladin because we twigged on that the Russians have pretty much finished converting over to using 45 and higher calibre guns long before we admitted that it might be a good idea after all) the shit hit the fan. While the US promised Dr. Bull nothing would happen to him if he helped the US out with rearming the South Africans, he was promptly picked up and tossed in prison in order to save face. When he got out, he had it with the US - and turned to providing what ever, to who ever, all in order to fund his dream gun - a large 48" bore cannon that could launch satellites into space, and Saddam was willing to pay for it - provided he would make war shots for it first. And the rest is history.

[Webstral]

Ah, the space gun! Think of the benefits of having one of these bad boys in a western state firing into low orbit things that don't need to be handled gently, like water, oxygen, food pastes, chemicals, and specially designed satellites. More's the pity...

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Ah, the space gun! Think of the benefits of having one of these bad boys in a western state firing into low orbit things that don't need to be handled gently, like water, oxygen, food pastes, chemicals, and specially designed satellites. More's the pity...

Well, here is the rub: a 48" Bull gun would actually be gentler during boost into orbit than a rocket would be.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Ah, the space gun! Think of the benefits of having one of these bad boys in a western state firing into low orbit things that don't need to be handled gently, like water, oxygen, food pastes, chemicals, and specially designed satellites. More's the pity...

Unless you're Russian...

[natehale1971]

The Supercannons from what i had heard came in pairs.... One was aimed towards the East and the other was aimed towards the West. I just didn't know how accurate these guns where, and why the Israeli people were terririfed of the possiblity of them being aimed at them... firing ballistic nuclear warhead tipped shells.

Was the plan for the supercannons to be built upon platorms that were equipped with the ability to be moved around to hit targets in a semi-Ballistic missile trijectoray.

But i don't know if that's the case, and why the Isrealis were so damn scared of Bull building the damn things for Saddam Hussien.

[Panther Al]

These two guns are the very definition of immobile: the "small" test cannon was installed into a pit to support a barrel somewhere around 100'.

For the Size of the guns they was accurate enough: in essence, you got to pick a few hundred yard circle where the odds was fifty percent the round would land in it. And since the gun was mounted in a circular pit, it could be aimed at Isreal as well as Iran. Isreal saw it as a threat because Saddam was eager to develop a chemical round for it. They wasn't too worried about nukes: they already zapped Saddams nuke program, and if they tried to restart it they would do so again.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I can't find that much about the Iraqi Project Babylon, where they gave Gerald Bull the chance to build his super cannons, and that Mossad had taken him out because they were afraid that Iraq would use them against Isreal... I am wondering just what would have happened if after Bull had been killed, that Hussien had continued to build the Super Cannon using all of the work that Bull had written down. A what if Bull knew someone would take him out, and he had written out all his work so that someone could continue his work if anything had happened to him.

Who would have been on the receiving end of the super cannon? would it have been a real threat to the US and Coalition forces during Operation Desert Storm.

You should have a look at "The Fist of God", a thriller novel by British author Frederick Forsyth, which is based on a similar scenario to what you've outlined. In a nutshell, Saddam has an operational super cannon and nuclear tipped shells which he plans to use against coalition troops - it may not be realistic but it's a damn good read.

There's a more detailed plot synposis on wikipedia (warning - it does contain spoilers)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fist_of_God

[rcaf_777]

The parts for the Iraq Gun were shipped back to the UK after the Gulf War and there might a older model at Yuma?

On personel note mine and Canadian Army Grandfather met Mr Bull a once when he was still working for the Military

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I thought the big deal that tripped Bull up was him selling basebleed ammo to the SA Army?

Or am I confused?

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I thought the big deal that tripped Bull up was him selling basebleed ammo to the SA Army?

Or am I confused?

Yes and no:

According to the Embargo, he couldn't even do design work on the G5 in the first place. So the development of BB ammo for the same was just more fuel for the CYA prosicution of Dr. Bull.