Semi OT- Twilight 1950

[Sanjuro]

Several British writers from the 1940s commented on the fear that the Soviets, on reaching Germany, might just keep going and try to conquer the whole of Europe. Given the level of exhaustion (not to mention bankruptcy) in Britain, and the massive destruction of European industry, this would have been a very hard fight- the initial US nuclear advantage giving a few years of grace, but at the cost of making Central Europe even more devastated.
By 1950, the Soviets might also have nuclear weapons; both sides might be using V2s and their derivatives.
Alternatively, a scenario could be built around an escalation at the time of the Berlin Airlift.
For either of these, PCs (potentially survivors of a decade of war) would have huge combat experience; the battleground would probably be Germany instead of Poland; US troops (who enlisted to fight Germany) would be angry about the extended war... the possibilities are endless.
Any ideas?

[95th Rifleman]

Work both ways, Soviet PCs (and NPCs) would be veterans of the great patriotic war and wondering why they have not gone home yet. The war is supposed to be over, the fascists are defeated and yet they are now being told to turn on their former allies?

Propoganda can only go so far, both sides would be at the end of their emotional and pyschological limits.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Several British writers from the 1940s commented on the fear that the Soviets, on reaching Germany, might just keep going and try to conquer the whole of Europe.

There's also the possibility that it might have been the Western powers that kept going eastwards...Churchill went as far as instructing the Chiefs of Staff to come up with a plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

[Brit]

This might be useful: http://www.dalecozort.com/AHNewslett...WorldWarII.htm Personally, I find it more 'realistic', and much less fanciful, than the cliched "Germans suddenly unleash The Superweapons" idea.

I've also read on the 'What If?' site an alternative history idea where the Allies keep going, i.e. Patton doesn't stop, and post-war Czechosovakia is split into Czech NATO and a Slovakian Warsaw Pact halves. The Canadian's administer the Western half for a while, revive the arms industry and use upgraded Panther tanks in the Korean War and for several years later. (Some now missile armed Jadgpanthers might still be available for T2K...)

[Legbreaker]

There's also the possibility MacArthur could have gotten his way and attacked into China from Korea in 1951. That would have resulted in a VERY nasty situation as you can be sure the PACT (did they exist as a formal body then?) would have moved in Europe as well as in the east. MacArthur was also keen on using nukes at the time and the Soviets wouldn't have held much back. MAD wouldn't have been possible, with nukes being used only as fast as they could be hand built.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

There's also the possibility MacArthur could have gotten his way and attacked into China from Korea in 1951. That would have resulted in a VERY nasty situation as you can be sure the PACT (did they exist as a formal body then?) would have moved in Europe as well as in the east. MacArthur was also keen on using nukes at the time and the Soviets wouldn't have held much back. MAD wouldn't have been possible, with nukes being used only as fast as they could be hand built.

And limited ability to deploy them without cruise missles.

[Legbreaker]

Absolutely, which would further restrict the ability of one side or the other completely flattening the opposition in one go. Makes a slow slide into chaos and anarchy even more plausible than the original T2K.

[weswood]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Several British writers from the 1940s commented on the fear that the Soviets, on reaching Germany, might just keep going and try to conquer the whole of Europe. Given the level of exhaustion (not to mention bankruptcy) in Britain, and the massive destruction of European industry, this would have been a very hard fight- the initial US nuclear advantage giving a few years of grace, but at the cost of making Central Europe even more devastated.
By 1950, the Soviets might also have nuclear weapons; both sides might be using V2s and their derivatives.
Alternatively, a scenario could be built around an escalation at the time of the Berlin Airlift.
For either of these, PCs (potentially survivors of a decade of war) would have huge combat experience; the battleground would probably be Germany instead of Poland; US troops (who enlisted to fight Germany) would be angry about the extended war... the possibilities are endless.
Any ideas?

I like this idea. I think Europe may have been war torn enough that nukes wouldn't have had to be used to make interesting gameplay.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Im working on my Twilight 1946+ campaign.

A non nuclear WW3.

Important Points.

Hitler assassinated early 1945.

German Military bloody but successful coup against SS.

The German High command knowing Uncle Joe was out for blood sue for peace with US and Britain,

Nuclear weapons research suffers a major set back.

Increased fire bombing and with the Russians getting ready to invade Japan, China makes a deal with the Russians.

Japan see's the writing on the wall. The Emperor has a vision during a fever, he in great humility Surrenders to the US forces. He has the support of the People, not all of the military is as cooperative. But most do.

There is great relief for a short time. The world is looking at peace.

The German forces retreat to German border. US and British forces take up positions through out Germany and along the Poland/German Border.

Stalin is not very happy. Another purge in Russia.

Spy's on all sides are working as much as the Diplomats.

Several incidences and misunderstandings start the ball rolling in late 45, Stalin's Russians invade to take Berlin and then the rest of the world.

Its just a rough draft I am still fleshing out the details. Got a bunch of scribbled notes and thoughts.

Twilight 1946+
One thing that did happen that the Some of the Waffen SS units were sent from the camps to the front to slow the Russian advance. (these units had US or British Liaison units attached)

Some of the Brit and US units were overrun quickly, many captured. Tough for most of them though. (Shock units had no prisoner orders). A lucky US trooper with a camera caught one of these massacres on film and actually made it back to friendly troops, as did other eye witnesses). The Number and severity of these made Malmedy look like a walk in the park.

Basically the US Fighter and Bomber forces suffering high casualties when they were taking out supply and military forces.

US, British, and German Ground forces Fought hard and lost many, but delayed long enough that other forces were brought to bear. Air support and heavy bombers blue the hell out of the support lines of the Russian advance.

Heck some of the old maps can still be used. The final Advances of the Russians in the real world made it as far as they did then. Berlin is surrounded and is the new Stalingrad. Russians have strong forces concentrated in this area. Some Air drops that were flying with the bombers got some supplies to the cut off troops there.

Patton is still alive, and one of the Generals at the front.

One of the Ideas for characters is part of one of the cut off units fighting with resistance behind lines. Former Civilians, German (even one of the surviving Waffen SS, US, British Free Polish, etc.)

About the Waffen SS that were activated. When the Russians were planing on invading, the SS that were not directly involved in the Camps were given a choice. Join what were known as Redemption Battalions. These would have a US or Brit Liaison Unit. These Units were Sent in to stall the Russian advance. Most of the Units and men fought to the end. Few survive though becoming the pain in the ass of the Russian rear units and some front line troops.

Just some of my random thoughts and ideas kinda lumped into a well semi coherent Idea.

This may develop into a long term war. Which would be just as bad as any nuclear war since the starting point is a world already wracked by years of war.

Could be done as a survival style game, episodic war movie type game, long term Campaign. Land, Air and or Sea battles etc etc.... or a combination there of.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As an interesting aside, the AK rifle probably would not have the prominence it has today in such a scenario. As of the end of WW2, the SKS was adopted as the next battle rifle but design competitions were being held to develop a more modern rifle on par with the German StG44 etc.

Although the AK is not a simple copy of the StG44, the German rifle was massively influential on Soviet designers and nearly every rifle submitted for the design competition followed the same layout as the StG44.

The AK was accepted as much for political reason as military as many of the Soviet heirachy still held the belief that they were intellectually superior to the Soviet peasant. Even though better rifles were developed for the competition the AK was considered best for the "simple peasant soldier" but it had to go through several years of refinement before it was considered acceptable for production.

Given the war scenario of Twilight: 1950, it's highly likely that the Soviets would not have the luxury of time to develop the AK series into what we know today and it's possible several other designs may have been put into production.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Yeah thats whats cool about this time period, alternate weapons and technologies. Though I still think the AK or one of its alternates would still be able to be used.

In my version, the elite shock troops and the guard troops would be using the SKS.

http://gunco-book.tripod.com/04.htm

this page has some really cool picks to use as influence for small arms for the period.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Oh I'm not saying the AK would not exist, only that it would likely be one of a number of designs in use and the AK would not be as dominant as it has been in real life.
Here are some alternate designs from the era that would be pretty interesting if a little bizarre to most solid infantry types: -
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-022-e.html

And a more conventional rifle from the same designer
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-517-e.html

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Hitler assassinated early 1945.

Maybe move that back to mid-late 1944? Give the Germans a bit more time to "clean house" before they've suffered too much damage?
You could say it was in response to one of Hitlers more boneheaded ideas to "throw the allies back into the sea" after D Day.