SMG and Shotguns in CQB

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I still think the SMG is the king of CQB just for sheer size, volume of fire, and control. Though some new "PDW" designs seem interesting (the KA PDW and the supper short barrel M-4s/ARs in 5.56 and 6.8 SPC).

But we are traditionally talking pistol caliber SMGs and as someone stated they are limited on range.

Personally I carry a sidearm every day almost 24/7. But in a critcal incident I'm grabbing my M-4 carbine.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Oh... but wait... then there's SMG vs. shotgun in CQB LOL.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Oh... but wait... then there's SMG vs. shotgun in CQB LOL.

And then we could argue over traditional stocks vs. pistols grips, semi-auto vs. manual action, and slugs vs. all the different kinds of shot. It opens up a whole new world!

In all seriousness, it comes down to picking the right tool for the job, like I said before, but that depends largely on one's contextual interpretation of the job at hand. I'm sure somebody will pipe up if I'm wrong, but all other options being roughly equal, isn't the current preferred military method for securing a structure more along the lines of calling in an airstrike or artillery barrage on it? Only half joking there.

Even in the absence of combined arms support in the post-Twilight War era, a military entry is usually along the lines of "Kill everybody in the room" whereas an entry in a LE context usually gets tied up in preserving various and sundry Constitutional rights of the occupants. Same basic job, vastly differing process. Smack me if I'm too far off base.

The real task is framing the difference in relevant game mechanics over pure roleplaying. If the system you use doesn't make any meaningful distinction between submachinguns, shotguns or assault/battle rifles in CQB then there really is no reason not to use an FAL for every job.

[Brother in Arms]

LOL wow didn't mean to stir up such a controversy.

On the SMG vs. Shotgun debate though i'm sure a shotgun would be good but the tube fed pump action variety doesn't hold very many rounds. other than that it would be pretty sweet indoors using 00 buckshot or even better #4 buck shot which has 27 .240 pellets.

I think Grenades would be one of my weapons of choice for CQB. I wouldn't concerrn myself much with no-combatants. I think Assault rifles, SMG, Shotguns and Pistols would all be useful in different scenarios. A Battle rifle could be too, if penetration is what you need. Depends on what kind of building you are in. I was in an old woolen mill in Portland Maine, The rooms where very large and had long hall ways. There where large windows on the outer brick walls allowing a lot of light to enter but dark unlit corridors. I was imagining the building cratered from artillery fire dark with rain comingit.....And running around in there with an AK having a fire fight. But it was so large an open you could have easily carried a LMG.

Brother in Arms

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

On the SMG vs. Shotgun debate though i'm sure a shotgun would be good but the tube fed pump action variety doesn't hold very many rounds. other than that it would be pretty sweet indoors using 00 buckshot or even better #4 buck shot which has 27 .240 pellets.

Shotguns (and tactical buckshot, beehive, Claymores) are weapons I've never felt were well handled by the T2K rules. A shotgun's effects can really vary by bore, load, barrel length, and the choke of the shotgun. The choke problem has really made me nuts in the past, and I basically gave up on it. Same with the load.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

On the SMG vs. Shotgun debate though i'm sure a shotgun would be good but the tube fed pump action variety doesn't hold very many rounds.

While it's true that a shotgun doesn't hold as many shells as a SMG, an 8+1 shotgun with buckshot has more projectiles loaded than almost any SMG. 000 buckshot is 9.1mm and a couple of shells has about as many pellets as a typical 1-second burst from a SMG.

The two main limitations of the shotgun compared to the SMG is shorter range (round pellets lose velocity faster than modern bullets) and higher recoil (although it's my understanding that semiauto shotguns have less kick than pump or breechloading shotguns). With a detachable box magazine there there isn't a slow reload problem.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

copeab,

Correct on range but you also have slugs ;-). Slugs are effective and lethal easily to 75-100 meters. A 1-oz slug may lose velocity but when it hits you at that range .. OUCH!!! The only thing with slugs is that to be truly effective at that range you need good sights for accuracy. A 9mm round fired from an SMG (typically with a 8 to 10" barrel) will lose a lot of energy at 100m.

[Brother in Arms]

Gents these are all good points about SMG's and shotguns. In away at least for CQB I don't think either is an issue....penetration either for a SMG or Shotgun isn't anything to worry about. Range isn't an issue either Its true that Shotguns have as many or more projectiles than an SMG burst but doing a Mad minute with a shotgun is more difficult that with an SMG, not because of speed but recoil, shotguns have a fair amount of recoil...also The reason I mentioned the Pump shotgun is the prevalence of them in a T2k Setting. There are several semi-auto shotguns available as well, but few that use detachable mags though several where developed in the 1980's and 90's. Most of those firearms where never really common and only a few newer box fed semi-auto shotguns Like the Saiga-12 have become common in recent years.

If you look at the shotguns of the U.S military it wasn't until 1998 (realworld) that the US military adopted the Benelli 1014 and while semi auto, is still tube fed. Before that they had a used a huge mixture of pump shotguns from various commercial manufacturers, though in ww2 they did purchase the semi-auto remington model 11 which was a copy of the browning A5.

Maybe this thread should be changed to SMG and Shotguns in CQB

Brother in Arms

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

copeab,

Correct on range but you also have slugs ;-).

Not just slugs. You also have a lot of special purpose rounds for the shotgun (of varying practicality) that aren't available for SMGs.

(And yes, there are 9mm shotshells ...)