Gulf/Caribbean Naval Activity?

[kalos72]

Has anyone thought about possible Gulf/Caribbean naval activity or scenarios?

I would assume some of the the Mexican Navy would move north with the army for support...what forces could the US move to counter?

Cuba? Colombia? Venezuela?

Anyone know what naval forces the US would have in the area pre-war?

[dragoon500ly]

Best source of the USN, pre-war is the "14th Edition of The Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet"...

Second Fleet is the traditional "home" or training fleet. 2nd Fleet has the NATO Strike Force mission as well as being the Navy's operational requirements of the Caribbean and Central America as well as the ASW mission in the Atlantic.

Carrier Group 6 is based at Mayport, Florida (CV-59 and CV-60). Also based at Mayport is Cruiser-Destroyer Group 12 which consists of 4 DDG, 16 FFG, 7 FF, 3 MSO and 1 AD.

Based at Key West, Florida are 6 PHMs of PHM Squadron 2.

The senior command for the Caribbean is Task Force 28 (Caribbean Contingency Force).

The Naval Reserve also operates FFG-20 and FFG-21 out of Mayport, Florida and FFG-24 out of Galveston, Texas.

The only ships that regularly operate in the Gulf of Mexico are the Naval Reserve ships and the hydrofoils of PHM-2, the other ships tend to rotate between assignments to 2nd Fleet and forward deployments to 6th Fleet.

The U.S. Coast Guard covers the area with the 7th Coast Guard District (Miami, FL) and the 8th Coast Guard District (New Orleans, LA). Coast Guard vessels and aircraft are split between the Atlantic Area and the Pacific Area. I'm still researching their assignments for the pre-war area.

For the most part the Navy operates light forces (with the occasional cruiser or SSN deployed) in the Caribbean.

[kalos72]

Good info thank you.

Any thoughts on naval forces moved to the area in response to the Mexican advance?

Something else to consider...the USS Lexington in Corpus Christi.

[Rainbow Six]

Prior to the start of the War the Royal Navy and the Royal Netherlands Navy would also each have one ship stationed in the Caribbean. How long they'd stay there after the start of hostilities is, of course, another matter.

(During the Falklands War the New Zealand Government of the time agreed that some Royal New Zealand Navy ships would take over routine patrols normally carried out by RN ships so that the RN ships could head to the South Atlantic, so if you wanted to add something slightly more unusual into the mix it's not impossible that the RN Caribbean guardship in T2K could have been relieved by a friendly but non belligerent Navy - most likely either the RNZN or the Royal Australian Navy.)

The French also have a Naval base at Martinique (the Caribbean could be an interesting little side show in the aftermath of the French invasion of the Netherlands).

[dragoon500ly]

Naval Surface Group 4 is based out of Newport, Rhode Island and consists of 1 DD, 5 FFG and 5 FF, but their task is the Atlantic ASW mission.

Cruiser-Destroyer Group 2 is based out of Charleston, South Carolina and consists of 2 CG, 6 DDG, 7 DD, 10 FFG, 8 FF, this is slated for the Atlantic ASW/convoy escort mission.

Cruiser-Destroyer Group 8 is based out of Norfolk, Virginia and consists of 1 BB, 5 CGN, 6 CG, 13 DDG, 9 DD, 1 FFG, and 9 FF, but this is slated for carrier/convey escorts.

2nd Fleet also has a sizable submarine force:
Submarine Group 2 out of Portsmouth, New Hampshire has 7 SSBN and 2 SSN

Submarine Squadron 2 out of Groton, Conn. has 10 SSN, Submarine Development Squadron 12 is also based there and adds another 6 SSN.

Submarine Squadron 10 in New London, Conn. has 5 SSN.

Submarine Squadron 14 is based at Holy Loch, Scotland with 9 SSBN

Submarine Group 6 is based out of Charleston, South Carolina with 9 SSBN
Submarine Squadron 4 is also at Charleston with 10 SSN and 1 SS
Submarine Squadon 18 is also at Charleston with 2 SSBN

Submarine Squadron 6 and 9 are at Norfolk, Virginia with 17 SSN

Submarine Squadron 16 is at Kings bay, Georgia with 7 SSBN

The problem with the subs are that they charged with the Atlantic ASW mission and are also forward based at Holy Loch, Scotland and La Maddalena, Sardinia (6th Fleet)

Marine Support for the Caribbean is provided by the 2nd Marine Division (typically through the 4th and 6th Marine Amphibious Brigades). But the
4th MAB is assigned to reinforce Norway while the 6th MAB is slatted for duty with the Maritime Prepositioning Ships-Atlantic. 2nd Marine Division also supports the 22nd, 24th and 26th MAUs (battalion-sized) that operate in the Mediterranean with the 6th Fleet.

As you can see, the 2nd Fleet does support limited operations in the Caribbean, but its focus is on the Atlantic, especially the ASW and convoy escort missions. With the onset of warfare with the Soviet Union, I would expect the Navy to actually strip ships from the area, especially as the Soviet submarines start surging into the Atlantic. With the invasion of Mexico, I could see a handful of frigates, and Coast Guard cutters doing the main work, with the occassional cruiser and 2-3 destroyers entering the area for specific operations, and then being withdrawn back into the Atlantic.

[dragoon500ly]

We've discussed the U.S. presence in the Caribbean, but what of the Mexican presence?

Combat Fleets of the World, 1993 lists the Mexican Navy as follows:

Personnel: 38,000, including 9,000 marines (plans to reduce this 6,000 in 1996, in RL).

The Mexican Navy operates the following aircraft:
5 Grumman HU-16 Albatross amphibians
10 Casa 212 coastal surveillance
1 DNC Buffalo
1 Fokker F-27
and 40 light fixed-wing aircraft, including: 1 Learjet 24D, 12 Beach B-55, 1 Cessna 401, 1 Beech King Air 90, 4 Rockwell Turbo-Commander, 1 Piper Aztec, 1 Cessna 337G, 1 Beech D590, 1 Cessna 206A, 1 Cessna 441, 8 Cessna 152, 3 Beech T-34 Mentors and 6 Beech F-33 Bonanza.

Helicopters include 11 MBB BO-105CB, 3 Alouette III, 4 McDonnell Douglas MD 500E and 1 MD 500, 3 Hughes 269A and 2 Bell UH-1H plus 10 SA-315 Lama SAR helos.

Warships include
2 ex US Gearing-class Destroyers, these have had the FRAM mods and mount two twin 5in/38 and a 8-tube ASROC launcher.

1 ex US Fletcher-class Destroyer, she is basically unmodified, with 5 5in/38 and four twin 40mm mounts with obsolete WWII radars and fire control equipment, reported to be in poor material condition.

1 ex US Charles Lawrence and 2 ex US Crosley-class frigates, these are former WWII high speed transports armed with a single 5in/38 and three twin 40mm. In need of replacement due to their material condition.

2 Aguila-class Corvettes (with 7 more under construction), based on the Spanish Halcon design and armed with a single 57mm/70 gun and can support a single MBB BO-105CB helo. Intended for patrol/interdiction duties.

6 Halcon-class Corvettes, mount a single 40mm/70 gun and can support a BO-105CB helo. Intended for patrol/interdiction duties.

17 ex US Auk-class former fleet minesweepers. Mount a single 3in/50 gun and two twin 40mm/60 guns. All minesweepet and ASW equipment removed prior to transfer and used for patrol duties. All in poor material condition.

12 ex US Admirable former fleet minesweepers. Mount a single 3in/50 and one twin 40mm mount. Like the Auks, all minesweeper and ASE equipment removed, used for patrol duties and in even worse material condition.

31 Azteca-class patrol boats, these are British designed and mostly built in the UK and transferred to Mexico. Armament varies ranging from a single 40mm/60 Bofors, or a single 20mm Oerlikon or a single 7.62mm mg. Used for inshore patrol duties.

2 ex US Coast Guard Cape-class patrol boats, armed with two single mount 12.7mm mgs. Used for anti-drug patrol duties.

2 ex US Coast Guard patrol boats. armed with two single mount 12.7mm mgs. Used for anti-drug patrols.

Amphibious Warfare capability is very limited, consisting of:

1 ex US Fabius-class former aircraft repair ship. A WWII LST ship fitted with repair shops and still carrying 2 LCVPs.

2 Huasteco-class Transports. Carryies up to 300 troops, but mostly used as floating infirmaries and as disaster relief ships.

1 Iguala-class Transport. Fitted w/bow and stern cargo ramps and can support 300 troops. Damaged by fire in 1989 and not fully returned to service.

1 former frigate (the Durango). Built in 1935 and has a capacity of 470 troops and a number of horses. Served as a training hulk from 1967 to 1982, but plans in 1993 for refurbishing for seagoing training and VIP cruising duties.

Mexico also operates some 44 riverine patrol craft ranging from 80 to 1.5 tons displacement and armed with a single 7.62mm mg, as well as 3 hydrographic survey and oceanographic research shisp and a variety of tugs (for harbour use).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Not just the RNZN, the RAN took over some of the patrols done by the RN. One of the people I work with is former Aussie Navy and his ship was sent to Hong Kong during the Falklands to take the station normally occupied by a Royal Navy frigate.
They were told that it was "not impossible" that RAN ships may be sent to assist the RN closer to the Falklands. A number of RAN sailors were looking forward to that but as we know, it never eventuated.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

<snip>
(During the Falklands War the New Zealand Government of the time agreed that some Royal New Zealand Navy ships would take over routine patrols normally carried out by RN ships so that the RN ships could head to the South Atlantic, so if you wanted to add something slightly more unusual into the mix it's not impossible that the RN Caribbean guardship in T2K could have been relieved by a friendly but non belligerent Navy - most likely either the RNZN or the Royal Australian Navy.)<snip>

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Good info thank you.

Any thoughts on naval forces moved to the area in response to the Mexican advance?

Something else to consider...the USS Lexington in Corpus Christi.

Well, the USS Lexington is home ported out of Pensacola, Florida in the pre war era. And she is a flight deck...BUT... she has no aircraft support capabilities or other features that would permit her to operate in a combat role. She has been stripped of all armament and fire control equipment and operates only navigation and a single air search radar. Her magazines have been emptied and filled with concrete ballast. Her port deck-edge elevator has been deactivated and forms a permament part of the flight deck (yes they did weld it in place).

Her sole mission is to serve as a seagoing platform for landings and takeoffs by pilots from the Pensacola flight school, she is reported to maintain some aircraft refueling capability, but this supply does not consist of more than a few thousand gallons, their are no aircraft maintanance facilities operational.

During the Reagan era, the Navy sought to reactivate the Hancock-class carriers. Congress refused to fund this reactivation due to the poor material condition and lack of suitable combat aircraft that can operate from their flight decks (during the Vietnam War the supported F-8/A-4 squadrons, being too small to operate the F-4s). The best material condition of the three Hancocks (Lexington) is operated as a training carrier.

The Lexington would have to be extensively modernized and refitted in order to operate in a combat environment...at best her air group would have to consist of Harriers and helicopters. And in the Twilight War....it is doubtful that this would be done.

[kalos72]

Is she self powered at least? Maybe make her a floating base in the Gulf while a port is rebuilt or something? Add extra firepower to her decks? A few artillery pcs on the deck firing shots at 25km's will get someones attention.

Just creative ideas is all...

Is all that data from the book you mentioned? I need a digital copy...damn.

[dragoon500ly]

LOL! Any of Norman Polmar's books are worth the (hefty!) price. The best works are his 13th, 14th and 15th Editions of The Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet. Don't know if they are availbale through e-books, but the Naval Institute Press is the source. Problem is that you have to be a member of the Naval Institute in order to get books at anything close to a reasonable price. Still...the books are well worth every penny!

Combat Fleets of the World is also available through NIP, of the two the Editions give you a better overview of the USN, but the Combat Fleets are hard to beat for a broad overview. At least as well researched as any of the Jane's, but not as pricey!

[unkated]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And she is a flight deck...BUT... she has no aircraft support capabilities or other features that would permit her to operate in a combat role. She has been stripped of all armament and fire control equipment and operates only navigation and a single air search radar. Her magazines have been emptied and filled with concrete ballast. Her port deck-edge elevator has been deactivated and forms a permament part of the flight deck (yes they did weld it in place).

The Lexington would have to be extensively modernized and refitted in order to operate in a combat environment...at best her air group would have to consist of Harriers and helicopters. And in the Twilight War....it is doubtful that this would be done.

But in an emergency, she could be used as a floating base for a unit of attack helicopters; I am not talking as a permanent base, but for use for a few days to a week in a comparatively low threat environment - the Mexican Navy air units and Mexican air force do not seem well equipped for anti-ship combat. Add 2 modern frigates to ward off the Mexican Navy's surface craft, and you have a one-shot force to assault the Gulf of Mexico flank of the Mexican advance for a few days, that then retreats to New Orleans for fuel/restock...

Uncle Ted

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by unkated

But in an emergency, she could be used as a floating base for a unit of attack helicopters; I am not talking as a permanent base, but for use for a few days to a week in a comparatively low threat environment - the Mexican Navy air units and Mexican air force do not seem well equipped for anti-ship combat. Add 2 modern frigates to ward off the Mexican Navy's surface craft, and you have a one-shot force to assault the Gulf of Mexico flank of the Mexican advance for a few days, that then retreats to New Orleans for fuel/restock...

Uncle Ted

No doubt; but it all comes down to what choppers are carried. Army birds lack the take down/folding features of naval/marine birds; anyone remember the fun when they tried basing a ranger company and attached CH47 and UH60 choppers on the Thedore Roosevelt? You also have the problem of salt water corrosion. Army birds do not have the same level of protection as the navy/marine choppers. So what attack birds carried will most likely be limited to Cobras.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Well, the USS Lexington is home ported out of Pensacola, Florida in the pre war era. And she is a flight deck...BUT... she has no aircraft support capabilities or other features that would permit her to operate in a combat role. She has been stripped of all armament and fire control equipment and operates only navigation and a single air search radar. Her magazines have been emptied and filled with concrete ballast. Her port deck-edge elevator has been deactivated and forms a permament part of the flight deck (yes they did weld it in place).

Her sole mission is to serve as a seagoing platform for landings and takeoffs by pilots from the Pensacola flight school, she is reported to maintain some aircraft refueling capability, but this supply does not consist of more than a few thousand gallons, their are no aircraft maintanance facilities operational.

During the Reagan era, the Navy sought to reactivate the Hancock-class carriers. Congress refused to fund this reactivation due to the poor material condition and lack of suitable combat aircraft that can operate from their flight decks (during the Vietnam War the supported F-8/A-4 squadrons, being too small to operate the F-4s). The best material condition of the three Hancocks (Lexington) is operated as a training carrier.

The Lexington would have to be extensively modernized and refitted in order to operate in a combat environment...at best her air group would have to consist of Harriers and helicopters. And in the Twilight War....it is doubtful that this would be done.

Actually the Lexington, the Wisconsin and her surface action group were all originally supposed to be based at NAVSTA Ingleside at Corpus Christi - the end of the Cold War changed the decision but here that didnt happen.

Thus you would have Lexington, the Wisconsin, a Ticonderoga cruiser, a Kidd destroyer or a Flight I Arleigh Burke destoyer, a Spruance destroyer, three Oliver Hazard Perry frigates and probably a fleet oiler would have been based there.

That happened after the Caribbean module was written meaning that most likely the battleship that took down the Kirov was the Wisconsin and not the New Jersey. By the time Corpus Christi got nuked most likely all those ships would have been on overseas duty - with most of them sunk or damaged already