On the role of Italian Armed Forces in Twilight

[Muti]

In my opinion the background idea of Italy abandoning NATO and fighting against other armies in quality of Warsaw Pact ally, is totally wrong.

Italy, at the time, had a real strong intention to gather with NATO especially for economic and political reasons. Italian policy was very well in line with NATO conduct and Italy also took part in several foreign military mission. We have also remember the presence of a very strong "stay behind" paramilitary formation called "Gladio" (from gladius, the famous ancient roman sword) active in Italy until the end of the Cold War.

I have to admit that Twilight is just a game and not real history of some kind of cold war gone hot, but reading something like that Italy signed a mutual defence pact with Greece promising military help without care of NATO and USA opinion... well, it makes me smile. Italy was very sensitive about her position and her role in the European Union and her alliance with USA and this important "way of thinking" is still active today.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Muti

In my opinion the background idea of Italy abandoning NATO and fighting against other armies in quality of Warsaw Pact ally, is totally wrong.

Italy, at the time, had a real strong intention to gather with NATO especially for economic and political reasons. Italian policy was very well in line with NATO conduct and Italy also took part in several foreign military mission. We have also remember the presence of a very strong "stay behind" paramilitary formation called "Gladio" (from gladius, the famous ancient roman sword) active in Italy until the end of the Cold War.

I have to admit that Twilight is just a game and not real history of some kind of cold war gone hot, but reading something like that Italy signed a mutual defence pact with Greece promising military help without care of NATO and USA opinion... well, it makes me smile. Italy was very sensitive about her position and her role in the European Union and her alliance with USA and this important "way of thinking" is still active today.

Yes but somehow the game collapses and makes everyone chant USA! USA! USA! and 'murrika is raining cluster-bomb delivered big macs over a NATO-conquered Europe if you do this (so I'm led to believe).

[Muti]

I don't think the game collapse only for the presence of Italy in the NATO.

If we read the 2nd Edition timeline, the only important think that Italian Armed Forces did was to cross Tyrol and launch an offensive who took them until Munich. In my opinion this is quite impossible considering the logistical difficulties in invading a region like Austria before and then Southern Germany. Italian Army was more incisive on the defense and the northern sector was a real defensive position so why spend troops for a futile "blitzkrieg à l'italienne"? I think this was just a quick solution by the writers to bring more countries in the cauldrun on european front.

The alignment of Italy with Warsaw Pact is simply laughable but not for Greece, according to the political situation of that country.

We have also to rememberg that since the end of 80s the italian Partito Comunista was in crisis and on 1994 there was the affirmation of several right-wing parties pro-USA and pro-NATO.

[kota1342000]

Interesting Muti...are you also saying that Italy would probably also have stayed in NATO even if member nations were the aggressors? I had never questioned the game canon history here as I thought it did make sense; several nations that didn't want to have a third giant war in the same century saying "HEY! NO! GET BACK TO YOUR START LINES DAMMIT!"
So its good to hear from people around the world about opinions like yours, there are some things Ive changed from the game history, and now I think this calls for another change.

But Raketenjagdpanzer is right in some cases; mindless patriotism can get out of control and make the game pretty tedious. But most of the Players Ive had in the past few years tend to stay out of that rut in the road.

[Muti]

I speak only for the Italian side of the discussion. As you can imagine, my point of view is critical towards the official canon

I really don't know why the writers decided to make Italy quit the NATO and declare war to other countries in a frenzy like that of Mussolini during World War 2. Since the end of that war, the country is really peaceful and USA-centric. Italy received lot of financial resources from North America so a change of flag, even in Twilight, is not plausible.

During the 70s there was lot of social instability because of terrorism (Brigate Rosse, dunno if you know what I mean) but with the fall of Berlin Wall on 1989 the Partito Comunista Italiano collapsed itself in several other small parties giving lot of space to the right parties and the Socialist Party. The latter is a good example: the leader, Bettino Craix (who was also prime minister) was very critical of communism and he even pushed is favour of US president Reagan's positioning of Pershing missiles in Italy. The presence of US troops here, like in many other european countries, was very strong. Democrats of left governed Italy from 1994 until 2001 with different political coalitions but the idea behind them was alway eurocentric.

[Olefin]

I have the same feelings about Italy whole heartedly fighting against NATO as well and how it was portrayed in the game. If Italy had decided to fight she would have been much better served by just using her resources in the Med, not in some half assed attack into Southern Germany and Austria - especially considering how easy it is to defend the passes thru the Alps for any attack by NATO into Italy.

She would have been far better, if she had actually fought NATO, to just hang tight in the north, use her fleet to contest the central Med and Adriatic and take out Yugoslavia as a NATO ally. Thus she aids the Russians but not with a sudden thrust into Germany that doesnt do much but get a lot of her armed forces hit hard and burn up almost all her pre-war military supplies in the process.

And Muti brings out an important point as well - that much of Italy was right to far right and if anything would have joined NATO against the Russians and against any Italian government that tried to take Italy into a war against NATO.

A canon that mentions Italian units fighting other Italian units, fighting within Italy itself going on, or units changing sides and joining NATO is much more believable considering the actual situation of Italy, even if you do have her follow the path that is in the canon.

I think you can see a scenario like this in Going Home - where the Folgore MD has changed sides and is now heading home itself to fight the government that brought Italy into the war against NATO. Surely there had to be other units that did the same thing, not just in Yugoslavia but in Germany and Austria as well.

An Italian civil war caused by the government's decision to join against NATO would be a great addition to a player canon. And frankly if there ever is a rewrite of the old timeline it would be a very logical path for how things may have "actually" played out in Italy in the Twilight War.

Or you could have Italy join the war on NATO's side - but again now its the leftists who raise the banner of civil war and you have units fighting units again - and any Italian participation on NATO's side rapidly dwindles as units are called home to try to restore stability - especially as you could add Russian nuclear strikes against Italy instead of NATO ones as being why the govt cant handle the civil war without bringing most of its military home.

[Muti]

Olefin,

the idea of a civil war is good. In my alternative canon:

- Italy stay with NATO.
- After nuclear strikes, the italian central government is in crisis.
- Some times after a civil war starts between right and left activists; I imagine it like what happend from 1943 to 1945: in Northern Italy there was the Repubblica Sociale Italiana, a german puppet government with Mussolini as leader, in Southern Italy there was the official royal government supported by Allied.
- Actually (according to Twilight official timeline) the nation is still involved in a civil war and the central government is making efforts to solve the situation and start the reconstruction.