To Fortify? That is the question...

[kalos72]

So as the story develops in South Texas in my game, the questions has come up about the need for every major settlement to have a rubble/dirt mound wall around it for protection.

My game has the III Corps landing back in Texas to rebuild...has secured 2-3 counties and it trying to secure the major settlements. They are training local militias for the day to day security of each settlement.

So for say Victoria, population limited to about 10k maybe (population limits for major settlements still being discussed) and digging a "moat" at a 5 square mile perimeter an making a wall out of the excavated earth and then using that as city limits and patrolled by the militia.

Now if the SHTF there is local military support but for the small stuff, the militia would need to handle.

The thinking here is:
1. Keeps unregistered people (non-citizens) from just sneaking into the city
2. It limits the population some by the physical boundary set by the wall. The society is mostly agrarian, they HAVE to be able to support themselves locally.
3. Helps with general security of the city

But I imagine digging a 5 square mile moat and then creating a suitable wall out of it, around each County Seat...maybe a 2 sqm around every city would take alot of work.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If they come back with CEVs or M88s they could raid local highways (and state DOT facilities) for stacks of Jersey Barriers to build a concrete rampart around a settlement. I mean, it could be done with other vehicles too assuming they could get them working. It might be an easier option than a lot of manual digging - that's going to burn precious calories for both citizens and soldiers...

[kalos72]

Let's assume heavy equipment / vehicles and fuel are not an issue...

I am just not sure its worth it really, with an active and vigilant police force and militia, not sure the value is there for al the effort.

But I do like the idea of the towns being able to defend themselves from marauders should they get past the active military patrols on the outskirts of each County.

[Badbru]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So as the story develops in South Texas in my game, the questions has come up about the need for every major settlement to have a rubble/dirt mound wall around it for protection.

You need to go back in history quite a bit to find a time when settlements of any size had/needed a wall around it for protection. Pre gunpowder history even.

Originally Posted by kalos72

My game has the III Corps landing back in Texas to rebuild...has secured 2-3 counties and it trying to secure the major settlements. They are training local militias for the day to day security of each settlement.

When you say "has secured 2-3 counties" that's a past tense statement. You allready consider 2-3 whole counties "secured" do these, or even just the settlements in them, have defensives motes and berms? I'm thinking not, so...

Originally Posted by kalos72

So for say Victoria, population limited to about 10k maybe (population limits for major settlements still being discussed) and digging a "moat" at a 5 square mile perimeter an making a wall out of the excavated earth and then using that as city limits and patrolled by the militia.

Ten thousand people per 5 square miles sounds like a pretty high population density to me. I admit I'm not that informed on population densities but I doubt you could put that many people inside a 5 square mile perimeter AND have them self sustaining on other land within that perimeter so that kinda rules out point two.

Originally Posted by kalos72

The thinking here is:
1. Keeps unregistered people (non-citizens) from just sneaking into the city

Any well patrolled fence will do that.

Originally Posted by kalos72

2. It limits the population some by the physical boundary set by the wall. The society is mostly agrarian, they HAVE to be able to support themselves locally.

See above but there are other easier ways to controll the numbers of population and population will be dictated more by the viability of the land for food crops production than any local defense earthen works.

Originally Posted by kalos72

3. Helps with general security of the city

Yeah it may well do, but I saw the last five minutes of a TV show about Chinas' Great Wall, and guess what, it didn't actually keep people out. At one point a gate was opened for the Monghol army.

Originally Posted by kalos72

But I imagine digging a 5 square mile moat and then creating a suitable wall out of it, around each County Seat...maybe a 2 sqm around every city would take alot of work.

I see my response as a bit harsh but I'm with Raketenjagdpanzer on this one. Even with equipment and machinery that's going to be a major undertaking taking valuable man hours and resources perhaps better spent, if they have that engineering machinery, rebuilding roads, or the other recent hot topic, Railways.

Defensive hardpoints with elevated observation towers spaced every 600 meters or so around a fenced perimeter with some clear fields of fire will be more than adequate defense for your town because you really don't want to be facing any threat to ten thousand people right on those ten thousand peoples doorsteps anyway. Where is your defence in depth?

[kalos72]

Victoria for example...

110k over 33 square miles - so 10k over 5 doesnt seem off - but I could be wrong. I cant really find a real world example or even anything in game for perspective.

Yes, 2 full counties and Galveston County are fully under III Corps control by the end of the year 2000.

Where do you "find" 5 square miles of fence exactly...I guess you could make a "living fence" but thats years in the making.

Anyone have anything on the defensive works in Irag/Afghanistan maybe?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

A lot of your material can come from demolished houses. Bulldoze up some buildings and you've got a workable rampart. Of course, speaking of buildings, fence between them and you now have a series of strongpoints connected by a defensive wall...

By example, part of my problem with the vision of Central Florida is that we're all basically suburbs here around a pretty porous city. Defending against a serious invasion here would be difficult. We have some natural barriers in places like swamps, but on the overall it's not a great area to try and defend. Mostly it's flat and covered with very convenient roads.

Trying to build a wall around Orlando, even one with a population of "only" 30000-50000 clustered near the middle of the city, would be a years-long undertaking requiring resources and people on an unprecedented scale, and huge I mean huge amounts of fuel for trucks to move material because honestly you're talking about millions upon millions of tons of earth, concrete and timbers. Even if optimistically you say 25% of your population can be part of the workforce and would be willing to be, without at least a few front end loaders and dump trucks working, circling an area like (again, for example) downtown orlando with a defensive wall of any consequence would be basically impossible to do in any practical length of time. Going by hand, by the time you got it finished you'd have the government back in control of the situation and it would be superfluous.

NOW WITH THAT SAID...

If you're talking about a small town, or a subdivision? Yeah, that's do-able! Heck, I look at the gated communities around here with their "ornamental" brick walls that surround them and access control points and think: yeah, that's DEFINITELY a good start! Some of them I see around here, you could top the walls with concertina and beef up the access gates and BAM - instant Keep!

Then, if you've got the fuel, you use your vehicles for "thunder runs" making sure each community is well supplied. Plus you could build up a comm network between them. Set, say, a mortar team locally to each neighborhood, and pre-plot some fire, then you train the local PD on how to call it in, give them a simplified map, overlap those mortar areas for mutual support...that's how I'd do it. Small walls, but a good support network.

[kalos72]

But why go through all that extra effort?

Excavate an area and pile the excavated material on the inside of the "moat". Now you have a moat and wall, needing some work obviously but the vast majority of a wall system is taken care of right from the site.

Give a couple of bulldozers and some diggers a few days and I am sure they can get the basics done a couple miles a day. No?

I would prefer just chain link and elevated guard towers but that unrealistic on the scale I am looking at.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by kalos72

But why go through all that extra effort?

Excavate an area and pile the excavated material on the inside of the "moat". Now you have a moat and wall, needing some work obviously but the vast majority of a wall system is taken care of right from the site.

Give a couple of bulldozers and some diggers a few days and I am sure they can get the basics done a couple miles a day. No?

I would prefer just chain link and elevated guard towers but that unrealistic on the scale I am looking at.

Why is the chain-link and guard towers unrealistic?

You can put "nests" on top of now no-longer-used power poles in neighborhoods, there's your towers...as to chain link fencing, remember, most good sized urban areas now have almost completely abandoned hardware stores and depending on the area they're likely to have LOTS Of chain-link fencing. Some can be acquired from other places (around school playgrounds, tennis courts, etc.). I think chainlink fencing is more plausible than ramparts, tbh!