Promotion Rolls in v2.2

[NanbanJim]

So I saw this question asked elsewhere and it seemed pretty straightforward. However, when I got home and checked, it wasn't.

In T2k v2.2, what do you roll for promotion? d10? d20?
And how do you know that's what you roll?

I searched through the rulebook, but it really just says that you DO make a promotion roll.

The numbers provided, and comparing them to v2.0, imply that it's a roll on a d10 vs an attribute, just like it was in 2.0 (except that in 2.0 it was always Intelligence)... but it's not really stated clearly.

Thoughts?

[pmulcahy11b]

How about something like a shit happens promotion roll -- like a very small chance that much of your chain of command gets waxed and suddenly you find hands full with more rank than you were ready for.

Or, demotion rolls. You planned a night attack and kicked the coordinates for your fire support so it landed on your own pods.

Captain: You're an officer, and I except you to act like one!
Lieutenant: Sir, two days ago I was a private...

Can't remember what movie that came from. Some HBO series, similar in vein to Band of Brothers.

[SquireNed]

Ha! I was the guy who asked that question.

The real reason why I'm confused is character creation, and I don't believe it's the d20 because of the fact that you'd be being promoted at a way too high rate.

Keep in mind that the final term is an automatic promotion, which I believe refers to the chain of command being violently yanked.

As for demotion rolls, I don't know how common it is to be demoted; most of the examples I can see involve sexual misconduct from high-ranked officers. The only one I see that actually revolves around competence was Husband E. Kimmel's (which was likely scapegoating), and maybe John D. Lavelle (who may have been incompetent or unethical).

For the most part, people who were thrust into situations they couldn't handle were probably drafted, and by that time the formal demotion/promotion system was breaking down.

[swaghauler]

Here is the Promotion System I use in Twilight V2.2. This is based on my experience with the US Army and the ranks are Army specific as we always played as Soldiers when I was gaming in college.

A character may roll once per Military term and once per Civilian term IF the character is in the Reserves. The character may roll for TWO promotions on the term that war breaks out.

Base Promotion Rating: This is your character's basic promotion score against which you will roll for promotion. It is the Average of INT, CHA, and EDU (rounding down). To this you add 1 point if your character has a College Degree. If the character is an Academy Graduate (West Point, Annapolis, etc...) he may add 2 points to his base promotion score. A character may not have BOTH the college and academy bonus; It must be ONE OR THE OTHER. The total of these two numbers is the character's Base Promotion Rating.

To this Base Promotion Rating the character will add the following bonuses:

+1 point for EACH TERM served in the military on Active Duty
+1 point per Term in Airborne, Air Assault, or Rangers
+1 point per Term in Special Forces
+1 point for being on active duty during a "deployment"/"conflict"
-1 point for being a draftee

To this new total you will SUBTRACT the NEW Rank Number that the character is rolling to obtain (ie a promotion to Sergeant would be a Rank# 4 subtracted from the character's Base Promotion Rating). The Rank Numbers are:

E2 Private: Rank#0, Equip Multiplier: X$200
E3 Private 1st Class: Rank#1, Equip Multiplier: X$300
E4 Specialist: Rank#2, Equip Multiplier: X$400
E4 Corporal: Rank#3, Equip Multiplier: X$500
E5 Sergeant: Rank#4, Equip Multiplier: X$1000
E6 Staff Sergeant*: Rank#5, Equip Multiplier: X$2000
E7 Sergeant 1st Class*: Rank#6, Equip Multiplier: X$3000
E8 First Sergeant*: Rank#7, Equip Multiplier: X$4000
E9 Sergeant Major*: Rank#8, Equip Multiplier: X$5000
E9 Command Sgt Major* Rank#9, Equip Multiplier: X$10,000

*If a character "bucking for" this rank wants to; He or she may try to become a Warrant Officer. He must roll his modified Promotion Number HALVED. If the character has a college degree; He may try for Officer or Warrant Officer. The roll for Officer is 1/2 his modified Promotion Roll. The Roll for Warrant Officer is his normal promotion roll. If the character succeeds at the Warrant Officer roll: They will then use The Warrant Officer Promotion Chart from then on. The Promotion Chart/Rank Number List is:

WO1 Warrant Officer: Rank#0, Equip Multiplier: X$2500
WO2 Chief Warrant Officer: Rank#2, Equip Multiplier: X$5000
WO3 Chief Warrant Officer 3: Rank#4, Equip Multiplier: X$10,000
WO4 Chief Warrant Officer 4: Rank#6, Equip Multiplier: X$20,000

Any College or Academy graduate may attempt to become an officer. They must succeed at receiving a promotion on the list (2nd Lt has a rank#) The Officer's Rank Number Table is:

O1 2nd Lieutenant: Rank#1, Equip Multiplier: X$1000
O2 1st Lieutenant: Rank#2, Equip Multiplier: X$2500
O3 Captain: Rank#3, Equip Multiplier: X$5000
O4 Major: Rank#4, Equip Multiplier: X$10,000
O5 Lieutenant Colonel: Rank#5, Equip Multiplier: X$20,000
O6 Colonel: Rank#6, Equip Multiplier: X$35,000
O7 General: Rank#7, Equip Multiplier: X$50,000
O8 Brigadier General: Rank#8, Equip Multiplier: X$100,000
O9 Major General: Rank#9, Equip Multiplier: X$250,000

Any Roll which is 5 or more UNDER your needed score is an outstanding success. You may roll again for promotion but there is a -1 to this roll (in addition to any other penalties). Any roll of 10 where this is 5 OR MORE over your needed roll is a catastrophic failure and the character must immediately REROLL his last promotion or LOSE HIS CURRENT RANK (article 15, field court marshal, etc...).

The Equipment Modifier is a device I use for personal equipment. You roll 1d10 + the number of Terms you had in character generation and then multiply it by your Equipment Multiplier to determine how much equipment you get IN ADDITION to your basic kit.

[NanbanJim]

I'm both tickled and disappointed, SquireNed.
Tickled because, hey, small world, right?
Disappointed because darn... thought it was new blood.

So the others can join in, we're talking about: Ned's RPG.SE Question

And while the house rules are great, the real question is how does this work by the 2.2 rulebook. I'm thinking the answer is, "It doesn't, until you make a few modest logical jumps." But maybe I missed a line or two.

[SquireNed]

To be fair, I had only lurked here prior to this thread, so there is that.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by NanbanJim

I'm both tickled and disappointed, SquireNed.
Tickled because, hey, small world, right?
Disappointed because darn... thought it was new blood.

So the others can join in, we're talking about: Ned's RPG.SE Question

And while the house rules are great, the real question is how does this work by the 2.2 rulebook. I'm thinking the answer is, "It doesn't, until you make a few modest logical jumps." But maybe I missed a line or two.

You would be correct in your statement. I think they partially deleted the V2 rules with the intention of editing them for V2.2 and that got lost in the mix. That's why I made my own version.

[NanbanJim]

Updated the RPG.SE answer. I figured it out. Reposting here.



For promotion, roll 1d10. If, after the listed modifiers to the roll, you roll equal to or greater than the number listed under Promotion, your character is promoted.

There's the answer, now let me walk you through it.

The easy part is to pin down what number we're trying to roll. Look at the wording: 6+, six plus. That's pretty clear that whatever you're rolling you want to roll a 6 or higher on it. Also note that a DM adds to your die roll, making it easier... so it would make no sense for a lawyer to get a +1 DM with if their EDU(cation) stat is 7+, if that only made it _harder_ to get promoted? So we're obviously dealing with the promotion roll being the listed number or higher on whatever sided die we're using.

Note also that changing military branches imposes a -2 to your roll:

Changing Branches: Characters who are planning to change military branches on the following term must subtract 2 from their promotion die rolls.
(p.30)

It is decidedly more difficult to get promoted from O2-O3 in the Navy if you just made O2 in the Army; you're busy learning how this Navy thing works, vs the O2 who's been Navy from day one who already knows that crap. So no, if the promotion roll is listed as "6+" as in your example, the goal is absolutely _not_ to roll 1-6. The goal is to roll 6-10 or 6-20.

As some noted, let's take a look at 2.0:

In 2.0, which 2.2 is heavily copypasted from, the rule was thus:

Rank
Promotion: A players roll versus Intelligence for promotion at the end of each career term in the armed forces. Graduates of a military academy subtract one from their die roll. Characters wishing to change arms of service in their next term add two to their die roll.
_(p.20)_

And for rolls themselves, it's all d10:

Rolling vs. (Against) an Attribute or Skill: To achieve success, the die roll must be less than or equal to the numerical falue of the attribute (unless otherwise speciifed). Die roll modifiers (if any) are to be made to the die roll before comparing the result with the attribute number.
(p.16)

Note that military academy grads subtract 1 from their die roll, making it easier to roll their INT or less; note that changing arms of service (which includes branches) add 2 to their die roll, making it harder. These are both the inverse of the 2.2 rules. So we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the 2.2 rule is to roll the listed number or above.

But what freaking die do we roll!?!?!?!?!?!

Well this is where we look at 2.0 vs 2.2 again.

In 2.0 you can randomly determine attributes by rolling 2d6-2, rerolling any results of 0. This means a 5 is average; however, players who choose to use point-based allocation get 32 points, making the average just over 5.

Therefore the promotion roll in 2.0 would be, on average, a 50/50 chance, since we know 2.0 uses d10 (it uses no other die, save d6 for damage).

All 22 of the Civilian careers have a 6+ or 7+ for promotion rolls, and average up to 6.5454... pretty even split between 50/50 odds (6+ means a 6 or higher, inclusive) and 60/40 odds against promotion if we're doing a d10. That matches 2.0, more or less.

Of the 34 Military careers, all have 6+ for promotion rolls except 1: SEAL Officer, which has a 7. Again, that's 50/50 odds if we're using a d10, and again that matches 2.0 almost perfectly.

Add Civilian and Military careers together and average them out and you've got an average 6.232... so, a 6+ for the roll, on average. And again if we're using a d10, that's 50/50 odds on average, matching 2.0.

There's nothing listed in 2.2 about massively altering the promotion tables--and there's even a place for this, "Designer's Notes," p.276. The closest it comes to addressing rank is noting the decreasing skills-per-term from Traveller... and no, that's not coming very close at all.

Therefore, I can only conclude that no change from 2.0's rank progression is expected: The designers didn't mention it, and the numbers line up almost perfectly, with a little adjustment which should be expected from a version update. A massive change of the odds from 50/50 for an average character to 25/75 would certainly be worth noting!

So in the end, the answer is:

For promotion, roll 1d10. If, after the listed modifiers to the roll, you roll equal to or greater than the number listed under Promotion, your character is promoted.

Yes, it's silly that this wasn't simply stated. There's no reason to have to go through this much effort to figure it out--I actually incurred an expense on this answer! (To be fair, I'd been looking for an excuse to buy 2.2 PDFs for years.) This really should have been stated on page 30. I'm going to assume everyone involved just understood how it was meant to work--something that's easy to do with this kind of update.

On a sidebar, for civilian promotions, we are specifically advised that they do not necessarily mean promotion:

_Civilian Promotions:_ Civilian careers have no ranks. Characters in these careers roll normally for promotions, and receive the additional skill when they roll a success, but no rank or change in rank is recorded. Players should assume that some form of professional advancement or recognition was achieved with the roll, but nothing so easily recorded as a military rank.
(p.30, emphasis mine)

[Draq]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

How about something like a shit happens promotion roll -- like a very small chance that much of your chain of command gets waxed and suddenly you find hands full with more rank than you were ready for.

Captain: You're an officer, and I except you to act like one!
Lieutenant: Sir, two days ago I was a private...

i think the range would narrow considerably. yeah, alot low ranking guys would get promoted, but i think lots of lower officers would just end up with more men under their charge. and your captains and lieutenants would probably be the new 'big wigs'. kinda like in Final Blackout, the new leaders would be mostly 'field officers' aka NCOs.