how far the German Army has fallen from the 80's

[Olefin]

Thought people would appreciate this -especially those looking at later dates for the game start

Look at what the German Army has been reduced to - sounds like the US Army prior to WWII

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/674356...ence-spending/

an excerpt "In 2015 it also emerged the German military was using ordinary civilian Mercedes vans as stand-ins for armoured personnel carriers."

[Raellus]

And they're supposed to be the biggest and baddest army in central Europe. This article reinforces my postulation that if Russia really wanted to seize the Baltic States, they couldn't be stopped (short of the nuclear option). And the Luftwaffe and German Navy are in arrears too.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...broken-in-port

http://warisboring.com/germanys-air-...ing-to-pieces/

And the U.S. (with heavy military commitments in Central Asia and the Middle East) and its other European allies could stop a determined Russian attack on the Baltics? Sad to say, I don't think so.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Raellus

And they're supposed to be the biggest and baddest army in central Europe. This article reinforces my postulation that if Russia really wanted to seize the Baltic States, they couldn't be stopped (short of the nuclear option). And the Luftwaffe and German Navy are in arrears too.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...broken-in-port

http://warisboring.com/germanys-air-...ing-to-pieces/

And the U.S. (with heavy military commitments in Central Asia and the Middle East) and its other European allies could stop a determined Russian attack on the Baltics? Sad to say, I don't think so.

Practically all European NATO members and the neutrals are is in this shape, and few European NATO countries will spend their quota on defence or did so during the height of the Cold War. Most European governments spend a minimal amount on their armed forces whose function they believe is for defending their own territory only. Keeping their voting citizens happy through spending on education, heath care and social welfare is more important. NATO memberships seems to be a hindrance to them and basically they rely on the US to take care of their security problems, and certainly for any pro-active military operations.

The Germans are probably the worst culprits given their relative economic strength. Their armed forces seem to only exist to give employment to low skilled youths and large contracts to German and European defence companies. Even the British and French who do take their defence priorities seriously are effected by this mindset and are also strained by the cost of maintaining their nuclear forces. Commanders in the British Armed forces are currently looking for an extra 20 billion pound sterling a year to keep their forces effective, and I doubt they will get it.

If the Russians ever decided to move against the Baltics there would be very little NATO could do to stop it as even the US doesn't have enough forces in Europe anymore. Putin and co would just have a good laugh at any European country who threatened to attack them.

[mpipes]

I've seen pictures of Marder IFV awaiting scrapping. What did they do? Cut too much in the 1990s drawdown?

[swaghauler]

I swear that Angela Merkle is an agent of the Russians.

I actually watched a video of her walking up to a fellow German Lawmaker who was waving a German flag in a meeting and knocking it out of his hands (and to the floor). I personally would have slapped her silly if she showed that level of disrespect to my Flag (on camera no less). But then again, I think it should be legal to show Americans who burn Old Glory the meaning of the word "Sacrifice!" :/

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

And the U.S. (with heavy military commitments in Central Asia and the Middle East) and its other European allies could stop a determined Russian attack on the Baltics? Sad to say, I don't think so.

Not with Trump in charge.

[Olefin]

http://www.atimes.com/article/natos-...ns-wont-fight/

Great article that shows how few Europeans (outside the Poles and Latvians) are actually ready to fight for their country - and offers this little tidbit

"If you don’t plan to fight, you don’t need weapons, and it is no surprise that Germany, with its budget surplus, can’t bring itself to vote for urgently-need funds for its military. Germany’s armed forces are in disrepair; a German brigade designated to lead a NATO rapid response force has only nine of the 44 tanks it requires and only four of the country’s military aircraft are combat ready."

and love this quote - "Today’s Europe is something of a Lockean dystopia: It is composed of individuals concerned mainly about their own hedonic enjoyments, who want the government to protect them from want and disease, but have no desire whatever to defend their nations, which are on a slow boat to extinction in any event."

really shows just how far they have gone from the heydays of the 1980's which was when the game was written

one interesting thing in the poll (and one that actually supports the original canon) is that France is very high in the poll of those actually willing to fight for their country - and thus very likely in a war where they came out relatively intact to have the fighting spirit needed to actually do what the French did in the first two editions of the game

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Olefin

...only four of the country’s military aircraft are combat ready."

FOUR!!!??

Jeesus -- the Germans once had one of the largest Air Forces in Europe!

[Legbreaker]

Sounds a bit like the Australian tanks of about 25 years ago. Roughly 50 (54 maybe?) Leopards but only 4 actually in use at any one time, the rest laid up in storage.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Olefin

...who want the government to protect them from want and disease, but have no desire whatever to defend their nations, which are on...

Do they realize that the biggest source of want and disease in this world is warfare? That being taken over by the enemy is also a big source?

[swaghauler]

I don't know if it's accurate or not but War is Boring has stated that Germany only has 95 fully operational Leopard 2A6 (?) MBTs. That's a HUGE drop from the large number of tanks she had even in the early 90's.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Not with Trump in charge.

And why should the US have to defend Europe anyway if those same countries can't be bothered to do it for themselves?
Ok, there's treaty obligations, but that's a two way street isn't it...