Pirates again, and Mercs

[Adm.Lee]

I see in AOL's headlines, that an Italian cruise liner successfully repelled a pirate attack in the Indian Ocean, using the usual water hoses, and armed Israeli private security agents.

The article seems to describe the Israelis using pistols once the pirates raised boarding ladders, which deterred the actual boarding.

This line, or a rep. of some others, said they hire Israelis as security, because they are the best-trained. After their mandatory army time, the guys are looking for travel and money. {I'm thinking there are some kind of fringe bennies, too-- young and single, travelling around... }

[jester]

I read the same article. I am hoping that this idea catches on.

Now imagine if they had had a M14 or L1A1 or dare I say a M2 .50 cal? They would have one less pirate boat and half a dozen less idiots to deal with.

I must ask, why on earth are we being so nice to cutthroats? Its as if they go out of their way not to bring harm to bad actors who would kill you in a heartbeat. And the really sad thing is, they know this and play it which in turn gives them more sympathy.

I say we revert to how we dealt with pirates in the 17th and 18th centuries.

If only there were a group of men who could be armed and be placed aboard ships. And from time to time go ashore to attack badguys.....if only there were such an organization

[Webstral]

I agree with Jester. A handful of decently-trained men could make short work of raiders in a speedboat. It's sheer parsimony that cruise liners don't have such people aboard. Yes, the passengers would be unhappy to hear gunfire. Yes, a fire team rushing by and setting up an operating GP MG on the port railings tends to ruin the cocktail hour. But think of the benefits to sales! Cruise line repels pirates with loss of life to pirates! "Cruise with the safest cruise line the world!" reads the ad. The pirates will continue to make their speedboat attacks until they conclude there's nothing to be gained.

Webstral

[JimmyRay73]

While most of us who post on here would have no problem with a well trained fire team rushing to the rails and perhaps setting up a Gimpy, most cruise lines probably fear the impression that would make on the average cruise customer. Could make for an interesting challenge for "clean cut" mercs in real life or a Merc:2000 game. Or my semi-regular Ninjas & Supserspies game.

"Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to defend this cruise liner from ill-trained but ruthless Pirates, without frightening the depends off of the blue-haired granny bingo group on board."

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by JimmyRay73

While most of us who post on here would have no problem with a well trained fire team rushing to the rails and perhaps setting up a Gimpy, most cruise lines probably fear the impression that would make on the average cruise customer.

Yeah, that's the way it seems.

Its not like the security guards are running around on deck armed and ready. The pistols are kept in a safe and only accessible by the security chief and captain.

[headquarters]

I think that wouuld be a most interesting cocktail hour ! Even better if I could sign a wiver and get a vest and a carbine and join in after 5 rounds at the ships qualifying course .(Beats afternoon rhumba with Jorge - the gem of the Caribbean).

Now - the pirates - dont you guys see any other solution to the piracy than to kill` em all and let God sort `em out?

Seriously .Somalia .Piss poor and war torn -hundreds of fat prizes labouring away right outside their scorched dry , bombed out depraved coast .from the Cornish and Irish ,the Norwegian and Danes,the sailors of the US and when it was the colonies-not to mention the rest of you brits and francophiles - (I wont even mentionm the Spanish ones as they are described as to evil to talk about without coming agcross as a bigot.A)nd those vaguely related to Francis Drake in here ( ahem!)

hehe.

Piracy has been and is commonplace and will continue to be so until the material /economic situation on the pirate shores improve .Yes -there will be the occasional evil pirate overlord who runs things from a sinister compound where young maidens are traded in white slavery for doublons ahoi! But mainly its just poor people with access to the shipping lanes and and guns.Sure they have GPS trackers and cellphones ( wow! ) .But mainly its the poverty on shore that allows for recruiting young men to this line of work .Feed them on shore and they wont be tempted or se the need for turning to piracy .

On the technical side of things it has always been the tactic of pirate hunters to go after the money - that is target those who profit onshore rather than relying on going after the pirates on the ships alone .If you can limit the ports they can enter and trade in , they would soon be on the run.
Armed guards have often been used -for instance in China in the 1920s ,where Russians were commonly employed due to the surplus of fighting men after the civil war had ended.When it comes to the question of who is better trained for the job and who to use etc - in most cases that is often a question of who charges the most .

Originally Posted by Webstral

I agree with Jester. A handful of decently-trained men could make short work of raiders in a speedboat. It's sheer parsimony that cruise liners don't have such people aboard. Yes, the passengers would be unhappy to hear gunfire. Yes, a fire team rushing by and setting up an operating GP MG on the port railings tends to ruin the cocktail hour. But think of the benefits to sales! Cruise line repels pirates with loss of life to pirates! "Cruise with the safest cruise line the world!" reads the ad. The pirates will continue to make their speedboat attacks until they conclude there's nothing to be gained.

Webstral

[General Pain]

http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?opt...ns=0&Itemid=82

http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?opt...map&Itemid=219

btw: u guys must see the last episode of Soutphark....Cartman goes to Somalia to be a Pirate hehe

[jester]

Ah, but the poverty and depraved conditions ashore are self created and continued by them. The poverty and starvation and such is used as a weapon against one another. And it is these very same people who do everything they can to prevent anyone from helping. Even those starving are not helping themselves out of the situation.

So I really have no sympathy for that sort, they are in essence committing genocide upon one another. So, I very much do feel along the lines of killing them all and letting God sort them out. I further feel they should be treated in a barbaric manner as they are accustomed and would inflict upon you, me or any of their other enemies.

The sad fact of the matter in the 3rd World LIFE IS CHEAP! And many of that sort only respect a gun in the hand and only when it is aimed at them or they are our gunned or outclassed and they know you will use it.

Originally Posted by headquarters

I think that wouuld be a most interesting cocktail hour ! Even better if I could sign a wiver and get a vest and a carbine and join in after 5 rounds at the ships qualifying course .(Beats afternoon rhumba with Jorge - the gem of the Caribbean).

Now - the pirates - dont you guys see any other solution to the piracy than to kill` em all and let God sort `em out?

Seriously .Somalia .Piss poor and war torn -hundreds of fat prizes labouring away right outside their scorched dry , bombed out depraved coast .from the Cornish and Irish ,the Norwegian and Danes,the sailors of the US and when it was the colonies-not to mention the rest of you brits and francophiles - (I wont even mentionm the Spanish ones as they are described as to evil to talk about without coming agcross as a bigot.A)nd those vaguely related to Francis Drake in here ( ahem!)

hehe.

Piracy has been and is commonplace and will continue to be so until the material /economic situation on the pirate shores improve .Yes -there will be the occasional evil pirate overlord who runs things from a sinister compound where young maidens are traded in white slavery for doublons ahoi! But mainly its just poor people with access to the shipping lanes and and guns.Sure they have GPS trackers and cellphones ( wow! ) .But mainly its the poverty on shore that allows for recruiting young men to this line of work .Feed them on shore and they wont be tempted or se the need for turning to piracy .

On the technical side of things it has always been the tactic of pirate hunters to go after the money - that is target those who profit onshore rather than relying on going after the pirates on the ships alone .If you can limit the ports they can enter and trade in , they would soon be on the run.
Armed guards have often been used -for instance in China in the 1920s ,where Russians were commonly employed due to the surplus of fighting men after the civil war had ended.When it comes to the question of who is better trained for the job and who to use etc - in most cases that is often a question of who charges the most .

[headquarters]

Well, thats one mans view.

Anyways - lets not get into the politics bit more than we already did.

About fighting off a pirate assault as a mission - could be a great scenario if the defenders werent too well armed .( a few skeet guns they keep on the hobby deck ,some assorted cutlery and tools , the captains S&W ) Too make it even more interesting you could postulate that the pirates get enraged by recieving gunfire and start an action movie hostage/sneak around the ship thing whilst the crew and passengers are locked up etc etc.The task force must be inaccessible for along time of course due to ..eh..the annual navy personell conference in Nairobi and a sudden outburst of salmonella in the flotilla...

Originally Posted by jester

Ah, but the poverty and depraved conditions ashore are self created and continued by them. The poverty and starvation and such is used as a weapon against one another. And it is these very same people who do everything they can to prevent anyone from helping. Even those starving are not helping themselves out of the situation.

So I really have no sympathy for that sort, they are in essence committing genocide upon one another. So, I very much do feel along the lines of killing them all and letting God sort them out. I further feel they should be treated in a barbaric manner as they are accustomed and would inflict upon you, me or any of their other enemies.

The sad fact of the matter in the 3rd World LIFE IS CHEAP! And many of that sort only respect a gun in the hand and only when it is aimed at them or they are our gunned or outclassed and they know you will use it.

[Raellus]

Unfortunately, warlords and criminal gangs rule Somalia. We tried to help back in the early '90s with loads of humanitarian aid but the punks kept 'jacking it. Then we decided to get tough with the warlords and they pulled a "Black Hawk Down" on us. So we got out. The punks still rule.

Not sure what else we can do. Our "nation building" record (in that region, in particular) has not been that great.

Anyway, I read that shipping companies are reluctant to use armed security for two main reasons. A lot of commercial cargo is highly flammable or explosive. Second, they don't want the pirates to get violent. Apparently, the shipping companies are cool with their employees being taken hostage and ransomed for milions of dollars but are not cool with them being shot at and/or killed. Makes some sense, but not a whole lot.

I'm no accountant but I would guess that hiring a half-dozen or so "private security contractors" for travel through the embattled passage would be a lot cheaper than paying ransoms. Maybe not.

Someone here suggested having amphib/navy ships at both ends of the danger zone, then loading a squad of marines or a SEAL squad at one end, and pulling them off at the other. Simple, cheap, and effective. I just don't get why this is not SOP at the moment.

Villigant, determined, and resourceful crews alone have proven again and again that they can foil attempted boarders with little more than firehoses. Give them the tools and the training and piracy would soon become a very unlucrative profession. Even during piracy's "Golden Age" back in the 1600s & 1700s, a crew that actually fought back (given relatively equal strenght) stood a pretty good chance of getting away. And that was before radar, radios, modern small arms, etc.

Considering that a few Israelis with pistols chased off a group of AK-armed pirates, I would bet that just the sight of a couple of ARs would be enough to chase off most pirates.

[headquarters]

there are always more than one side to the story though - armed response is well and good if you could only say with certainty that there isnt ANY right on the other side ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann..._b_155147.html

[kato13]

The story above would have resonated with me if the pirates had demanded an investigation or policy change rather than money for their hijackings or if they had directed their violence against either of the two groups which are presumed to have wronged them (dumpers or fishers).

I've done a little digging and from what I have read the a majority of dumping that occurred came from the Italian mafia. I wonder if those ships arm themselves and are therefore not as easy of a target.

[headquarters]

If we want to police we got to do it right ."Standing tall" on the side of shipping companies to "keep insurance expenses from spilling over on the consumer" doesnt sit well with me .It would be better to curtail their profits by demanding different routes and getting to work on Somalia in new ways politically .

Besides - any political statement and these guys would be on a terrorist list in seconds.

Not saying that piracy is ok ,or that self defence is wrong - but alot of the kill em all and let God sort em out attitudes seems not to take into account the reasons for the situation .Reasons that could give the solution .

As for arming the crews - I dont think the crews are to keen on fighting of an armed assault to save the owners a suitcase of dollars - their pay isnt actually that great .

Also te vast majority of hostages held captive are treated well by the pirates .

Redirecting the shipping lanes (20 000 ship a year -thats around 60 a day not counting fishermen,and other craft) to a guarded zone might be a more viable solution .

Anyways -there are pirate attacks on shipping going to the US as well .I cant see the port authorities in New York whooping with joy over the multitude of missile launchers and HMGs arriving on mounts on the hundreds of ships going through there each week.

In the end -who is to say they havent tried to expose the pillaging of their coast? Some people dying in Somalia or loosing their liveley hood isnt going to get a lot of press-and taking hostages for political reasons as a Somali would probably mean that you wouldnt have to make many plans for next summer -if you know what I mean .

In any case -as previously said - some pirates are of course the scum of the seas and need to rest at 100 fathoms .

But shooting all the bad guys just creates a vacant position at hiring hall -GMwise, and some one new will take the bait .Ending the recruiting is the key .

It could be done by killing everyone .But I guess then the Somalis would kind of be in the right ? ( Even though if they are dead and cant argue the case).

The Italian mafia doesnt dump its own waste - it dumps waste for big business companies that we probably see tv ads for every now and then .They do the necessary dirty work to keep the numbers suitably black .

I would guess that running an illegal dumping operation in Somalia ( good merc mission) you would tool up before going in .About pirates going after them -The credit rating and will to pay up might not be all that good in the cosa nostra or n`drangheti compared to a major shipping firm ..

The pirates are not the heros here -of course .But pulling the trigger isnt clearly black and white .

Originally Posted by kato13

The story above would have resonated with me if the pirates had demanded an investigation or policy change rather than money for their hijackings or if they had directed their violence against either of the two groups which are presumed to have wronged them (dumpers or fishers).

I've done a little digging and from what I have read the a majority of dumping that occurred came from the Italian mafia. I wonder if those ships arm themselves and are therefore not as easy of a target.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by headquarters

But pulling the trigger isnt clearly black and white.

Right. And the naval policing isn't black and white either.

This is how useless the situation is...

A Canadian warship helped chase down pirates off Somalia who had tried to attack a Norwegian tanker.

The HMCS Winnipeg, along with a British vessel also conducting NATO patrols of the pirate-infested zone, foiled the attack.

The frigate pursued the pirate ship for seven hours after the British vessel scared it away from the 80,000-ton tanker on Saturday.

The pirates were finally caught early Sunday after throwing their weapons overboard, NATO officials said. After being questioned, they were released because they were outside Canada's jurisdiction and NATO has no mandate to make arrests.

--- The pirates didn't attack a Canadian vessel nor a British one. So they had to let the pirates go. This wasn't the first time this same situation happened.

[headquarters]

I remember the press that got up here.I honestly think that the authorities are glad we didnt end up with a piracy trial in Norway -but then again whats the point in apprehending them if they cant be made to stand trial ?

there needs to be a work over of the international sea laws pertaining to piracy .The rules today seem to be geared towards the age of sail rather than our current situation .

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Right. And the naval policing isn't black and white either.

This is how useless the situation is...

A Canadian warship helped chase down pirates off Somalia who had tried to attack a Norwegian tanker.

The HMCS Winnipeg, along with a British vessel also conducting NATO patrols of the pirate-infested zone, foiled the attack.

The frigate pursued the pirate ship for seven hours after the British vessel scared it away from the 80,000-ton tanker on Saturday.

The pirates were finally caught early Sunday after throwing their weapons overboard, NATO officials said. After being questioned, they were released because they were outside Canada's jurisdiction and NATO has no mandate to make arrests.

--- The pirates didn't attack a Canadian vessel nor a British one. So they had to let the pirates go. This wasn't the first time this same situation happened.

[Abbott Shaull]

One problem with arming the merchant ships, is that it thin line of defense and being Pirates themselves.

Then again I would agree to have Naval, Coast Guard, and Marines loaned to ship with various weapons. The next thing is to find the personnel to serve on these ships.

[Raellus]

I heard last week that the recently freed American captain is advocating in favor of crewmen receiving weapons training (and weapons) so that they can defend themselves from pirates.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I heard last week that the recently freed American captain is advocating in favor of crewmen receiving weapons training (and weapons) so that they can defend themselves from pirates.

I would have no problem with that.