the worlord is here

[firewalker]

http://www.military-today.com/apc/black_knight.htm


check it out as predictied by twilight nightmares

[General Pain]

great find....

[Abbott Shaull]

So if I read it correctly it is remote control Bradley?

[firewalker]

closse enuge for gov' work any way.

although there may (eventualy) be some abilty to self stear.

[natehale1971]

I still remember the group of gamers I was with in the Navy used some of the stuff from the Warlord and its complex from Twilight Nightmares to expand the "Damocles" complex from the Morrow Project campaign module of the same name. The pictures of the 'black knight' gives me some inspiration for the kinds of things i could use when i do damocles artwork when i'm able to draw again.

[cavtroop]

They say 'The Black Knight uses many automotive components from the Bradley to reduce costs and simplify maintenance.'

However, that's most definitely an M113 chassis it's sitting on - Bradley's have 6 roadwheels, 113's have 5. Having served on both, that's a 113 chassis.

From here:

http://www.baesystemspresskit.com/au...at_Vehicle.cfm

it looks like the weapon systems/targetting etc. are mostly Bradley-based, and that this unmanned vehicle is controlled back from a Bradley BC position:

"The Black Knight’s turret is equipped with operative components already fielded by the Bradley Combat Systems program, providing synergy between the current force and the future force"

and

"Gun and turret position, as well as information from the Commander’s Independent Viewer and the improved Bradley Acquisition System, can be viewed from the Bradley’s Commander’s Crew Station. As Soldiers dismount, they take the Dismounted Control Device (DCD) along to continue operating the Black Knight, receiving information on the single screen on the DCD"

Pretty neat concept, if an ugly vehicle

[Targan]

I mentioned in the LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS thread that the M8 contains drive train elements from both the M113 and the Bradley.

Originally Posted by Targan

The suspension and track system (of the M8) contains elements from the M113A3, the M2 Bradley and some M8-specific components. The hydromechanical transmission is from the Bradley but the engine, the 6V-92TA 6 cylinder Detroit Diesel, has 65% parts commonality with the 8V-92TA 8 cylinder Detroit Diesel used in the M977 HEMTT truck. The Cadillac Gage Stingray and Stingray II light tanks actually use the M977 HEMTT's 8V-92TA engine as well.

Seems like a similar situation with the Black Knight, although it uses a 300hp Caterpillar diesel engine rather than a Detroit Diesel. I bet that Black Knight's engine is also used in some other US military vehicles. Anyone have any guesses?

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Targan

I mentioned in the LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS thread that the M8 contains drive train elements from both the M113 and the Bradley.



Seems like a similar situation with the Black Knight, although it uses a 300hp Caterpillar diesel engine rather than a Detroit Diesel. I bet that Black Knight's engine is also used in some other US military vehicles. Anyone have any guesses?

yeah, thats the lower hull of an M113, for sure, but who knows what they are doing with the drivetrain/final drives/etc. No idea what other vehicles use the Caterpillar engine, though.

Sure is an interesting concept, expensive I'm sure

[kato13]

This vehicle confuses me. If it is based on either the M113 or the M2 chassis how can it weigh in at 9.5 tons. A basic M113 weighs considerably more than that (12.3 tons) without the 25 mm canon or turret. I know it is shorter but I cannot imagine that the volume differential could not explained by the open space in the interior of the M113.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Personally I think it's a custom built chassis, I can't see it being built on either the M2 or M113 hulls because it's not as wide as either. That would entail some serious bodywork to cut it down from for example the M113 width (3m) to the Black Knight width (2.44m) as well as modifying the drivetrain components to suit the shorter and thinner Black Knight.
From the look of it, the hull is probably stuffed full of the engine, fueltank and drivetrain while the turret is stuffed with the electronics, sensors and weapon with very little space left in either hull or turret.

[cavtroop]

Taking a real close look at the photos - I don't think it's any less wide than a standard 113 - I believe that page to be wrong with the stats. There is little question that's the 113 lower hull.

The drive sprocket is in the front (just like a 113), and the engine access hatch is in the font, too - so it's front-engined. Not sure what the large compartment is in the back. They engine MAY be back there, but with the drive sprockets up front, you'd have a long driveshaft going to the final-drives, and that just isn't a good setup on a combat vehicle. I can't see where the exhaust is, though - nothing in the photos seems to indicate that.

BAE doesn't seem to have any spec's on their page, though, so it may be a chopped up 113 lower hull, but I don't think so. It does say that they're using available technology until other tech becomes available, so this may just be a prototype built on whatever they had laying around.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by kato13

This vehicle confuses me. If it is based on either the M113 or the M2 chassis how can it weigh in at 9.5 tons.

The video on the page shows 12 tons, so the text may be in error.

(Near the end of the video they toss up some basic stats)

[kato13]

Originally Posted by copeab

The video on the page shows 12 tons, so the text may be in error.

(Near the end of the video they toss up some basic stats)

Ok that makes more sense since the M548 weighs 9 tons, I guess the turret and track armor weigh around 3 tons then.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by cavtroop

... However, that's most definitely an M113 chassis it's sitting on - Bradley's have 6 roadwheels, 113's have 5...

I have some more thoughts on this.

While I have no quarrel with the provable fact that some of the stats reported on the page are incorrect (you only have to watch the video for that), I don't agree that the similarity to an M113 is a good basis to declare it is made from an M113 chassis. Using the number of roadwheels idea by itself is dubious at best and wishful thinking at worst. Following that logic, the M109 should be a derivative of the Bradley because the M109 has 7 roadwheels, two more than the M113 but only 1 more than the Bradley.

Because the vehicle is a prototype, it's more likely they fabricated the chassis to meet the design specs rather than modified an M113 chassis which would involve some serious cutting down to make it thinner (the video states that the vehicle is 2.44m wide) and shorter (height 2m to the M113s 2.5m). And why waste a perfectly good M113 when there is an obvious need for that vehicle in some form other than to cut it down for a prototype?

I can't imagine them being able to fit a standard caterpillar diesel into the front of that thing, I believe it's in the rear. The exhaust possibly vents up from the rear deck in a manner similar to the radiator cooling fans on the Panther tank. Or it's even possible the exhaust vents underneath the vehicle which could help it mix with the cooler air being drawn in under the hull helping to reduce the thermal signature.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Or it's even possible the exhaust vents underneath the vehicle which could help it mix with the cooler air being drawn in under the hull helping to reduce the thermal signature.

Of course this option would also stir up dust reducing stealth capability.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Of course this option would also stir up dust reducing stealth capability.

More than what the tracks already do? If they use some sort of diffuser it would reduce the amount of pressure being vented

[Legbreaker]

Maybe, maybe not, but if the vehicle isn't moving, it'll still be surrounded by a cloud of dust.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Maybe, maybe not, but if the vehicle isn't moving, it'll still be surrounded by a cloud of dust.

Good point, plus it would add a point of weakness to the hull bottom. Having watched the video a few times it appears that hull bottom is solid but I don't see any identifiable vents for exhaust anywhere else in the hull.
It appears that the engine air intake is on the rear deck (but the video suffers from average clarity), perhaps the exhaust vents over the top of the tracks, between the hull and the sideskirts? Sounds crazy but I just can't see any likely vents for an exhaust port.

P.S. After seeing another video, I think the exhaust port is on the left rear corner of the engine deck, you can't see much in the still photos from the site listed above but in one section of the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRDs__6dFsE&NR=1 it looks as though there is a cap sticking up from the position I mentioned, the sort of cap you see on the end of diesel generator exhaust pipes. This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzblU7ciIHQ gives some shots with the vehicle near vans and personnel, giving a better idea of scale than the original posted sites video does.