Twilight America = Late Roman Empire?

[Raellus]

So, a couple of weeks ago, I was teaching (or trying to, at least) my sophomores about the fall of the [Western] Roman empire and I got to thinking, as usual, about T2K.

The Milgov/Civgov split seems to offer an interesting power sharing parallel to the late Roman empire when, for economic, political, and military reasons, the Roman empire was split in two, with two capital cities, two pairs of co-emperors, etc. Of course in the GDW canon, this sort of relationship never quite develops, but the potential for such seems to be there.

There are so many similarities between classical Rome and the U.S., it's kind of scary. Rome was, for a time, a republic, as is the United States. Both have evolved into incredibly diverse societies, spreading their culture and commerce around the [known] world. Both had incredibly powerful militaries, prone, at times, to adventurism. Both societies are easily distracted from domestic and foreign difficulties by lavish public spectacles (the Collisseum & Circus Maximus vs. Hollywood and the Superbowl [for example]). Their respective languages were/are the lingua franca of the civilized world. I could go on.

And then, there are the Dark Ages. Based on historical precedent, all great Empires must fall. When the Western Roman empire ceased to exist as such*, W. Europe entered (one could argue, reverted) into the relative chaos of the Dark Ages. Hasn't the Twilight War ushered almost the entire world into a similar state? The Western Roman empire was too weak economically, politically, and militarily to outlast its wealthier Eastern twin. Continuing this analogy, I would argue, based on GDW's canon, Civgov would play the role of the W. Empire while Milgov would become the Byzantine empire.

So, the idea of Milgov and Civgov splitting the U.S. into two autonomous but interdependent confederations sort of appeals to me.

I don't know why I posted this. Anyway, here it is. Feel free to comment.

*IIRC, one of the Roman senate's last decrees was a message to the provincial governments basically absolving itself of the responsibilty of governing and saying, effectively (if not word for word), "Good luck. You're on your own." For the life of me, I can't find the exact quote anywhere.

[Matt W]

Originally Posted by Raellus

*IIRC, one of the Roman senate's last decrees was a message to the provincial governments basically absolving itself of the responsibilty of governing and saying, effectively (if not word for word), "Good luck. You're on your own." For the life of me, I can't find the exact quote anywhere.

You may be thinking of the 'Rescript Honorius'. This was sent in AD410 to Britain by Emperor Honorius. It told British cities to defend themselves (or 'look to your own defence'). Historians think it significant that he wrote to the Cities and Towns (‘civitates’) rather than a Provincial Governor or senior General.

To be fair, there wasn't much that Rome could do to help - and there wasn't a level of government above the city in Britain (the last 3 governors had rebelled )

The exact wording has not survived. It might have been something like

“Vestrum est, Britanni, vos ipsos defendere”.

[Adm.Lee]

A variety of thoughts...

Check out the book Empires of trust http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...ng_a_New_World

It's a comparison of the similarities in construction of the two, but not the end of them.

Someone about 2 years ago told me they played a game called Twilight:1000-- they were Byzantine soldiers, cut off from the army somewhere in Asia Minor or Central Europe by a barbarian horde, blah blah blah.

On the subject of the fall of the West, I suggest looking at Terry Jones' book & TV miniseries Barbarians http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...nes_Barbarians

For that matter, Jack Whyte's novels in post-Roman Britain were a fun way to connect the Romans and King Arthur. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/151723.The_Skystone

[Mohoender]

Something else is interesting: the Game "Fulminata, armed with lightning". It has nothing to do with Twilight but it is an interesting RPG nonetheless.

http://www.fvlminata.com

[Littlearmies]

One of the best recent books on the period is Peter Heather's "Fall of the Roman Empire" - I'd highly recommend this book. Reading it made it clear that the fall was one of those periods in history where a cock-up or two ruined the last throw of the dice and that it could have turned it very differently.

[Adm.Lee]

I just started O'Donnell's "Ruin of the Roman empire" on more or less the same subject.

Here's a line that made me think of Twilight:2000. "When the great civilians were dispossessed or disappeared, leaving only military men wealthy enough to own land, as began to happen in Italy after the awful wars of the mid-sixth century, we can see the beginnings of feudalism." (p.33)

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Littlearmies

One of the best recent books on the period is Peter Heather's "Fall of the Roman Empire" - I'd highly recommend this book. Reading it made it clear that the fall was one of those periods in history where a cock-up or two ruined the last throw of the dice and that it could have turned it very differently.

I always believed that a multitude of factors brought it down - mainly poor economic managment and lack of assimilation of the conquered barbarians..

Tell me more please .

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I always believed that a multitude of factors brought it down - mainly poor economic managment and lack of assimilation of the conquered barbarians..

Tell me more please .

I'm not very knowledgeable about it but I would say that your poor economic management is right. Then, you add taxes and hard laws. A tiny bit of pressure from outsides help.

However, the lack of assimilation of the conquered barbarians is false or so i think. The last western roman emperors were of barbarian d'escent. Most governors in the west were also from barbarian descent. A good proportion of the Legions (auxiliaries) had always been composed of barbarians but toward the end that proportion had increased and they were found in the core of these legions. Those who were to reign over the early medieval europe were roman administrators, mostly of barbarian descent.

Basically, with governors such as Schwarzeneger, US is taking a risk.