5th US Army 1999 Offensive

[kato13]

Webstral 11-25-2003, 03:13 AM Doee anyone have any detailed information on the 1999 counteroffensive by 5th US Army? I've looked at Red Star, Lone Star and the US Army Vehicle Guide. The best I have come up with is that the component units of 5th US Army were in action in Texas by late 1998. 85th ID was mauled by the Texian National Legion in January, while the 49th AD and other divisions suffered heavy losses in a failed campaign at some point during the year.


I'm speculating that the Joint Chiefs would want to fight in Texas either when the weather supports operations. I would guess that this would mean March-May and September-November. Attacking earlier in the year would mean bringing in more harvests. And naturally it would be better to get control of the oil fields earlier in the year rather than later. But this is all speculation at the moment. Has a Challenge article ever addressed the issue?


Webstral

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Matt Wiser 11-25-2003, 03:27 PM None to my knowledge, and I've got them all, just about. There may have been some planned, but never published when GDW went bye-bye.

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[Olefin]

Never saw much detail on it myself - the 49th must have done a heck of a lot of damage before it got stopped - if you look at the Mexican Army composition by 2000 they had almost no AFV's left - and the Soviet force took a big hit too - and they would have been pretty well equipped with M60 tanks as they hadnt seen any combat at the time - they didnt get the Stingray tanks till after the losses they took in 1998 not before (US Army Vehicle Guide

Also the 85th must have been pretty badly led - they didnt have any armor with them but they did have some artillery - and the Texian's arent portrayed as having any armor - so to get wiped out that bad by guys armed with small arms only means they must not have had any veterans at all in their officer and Non-com ranks

whats interesting is that Lone Star makes it clear that the furthest north the Mexicans are deployed is Waco, with most of them to the south of that, the Soviets are all the way to the south in San Antonio and not very mobile and the Legion is mostly around Houston and areas east and north of it - so why are the US forces pulled all the way back to Oklahoma?

Most of northern and western Texas seems to not have Mexicans or Soviets in it - so why give up so much of Texas when Lone Star makes it clear that the governor of Texas is at Wichita Falls, still inside the state? Why would the 49th, a Texas National Guard unit, not have at least some troops with him?

[kato13]

Moved from archive.

[Olefin]

One thing I was thinking about as I wrote that the Texian Legion had no armor - has anyone read the Texas Israeli War 1999? In that book Texas declares independence during WWIII and uses a lot of museum armor and some seized from national guard depots to fight the US after years of war have weakened the US Army.

Now here the National Guard was fully in the field so I doubt they got any armor there. But old museum and collector tanks could be plausible - and could explain the defeat of the 85th.

They may not have been equipped with much in the way of anti-tank weapons since they were a state side reservist unit - and even a small force of Stuarts and Shermans could have really changed the dynamic of the battle against the 85th. Especially if motor transport was short and the 85th was a foot infantry unit.

Always wondered if any of the GDW designers read that book - it came out in 1974 and some of the ideas from it - like the Sons of the Alamo (read Texian Legion), an invasion of Alaska (in this case by China), US forces having almost no armor left and what they are using being full of old equipment, and a split in the US government (there seen as the Vice President doing a coup against the President and his supporters and the President's being in opposition to each other, although covertly) - sound very much like what went into the Twilight War

[kalos72]

Texian Legion always had me perplexed but after reading the Iron Triangle works and the KKK forces and such it made me cringe.

I have yet to tackle the Texian Legion in detail in my campaign...its so vague and empty its going to require alot of work to detail out.

[Olefin]

I did find one thing that historically GDW didnt have but could be used as a point in "reality" where the Texians could have got armor from

The Texas Armed Forces museum is at Austin, Texas, at Camp Mabry - it started to collect historical armored vehicles in the very early 90's - those vehicles could be the basis for armor for the Texian Legion and thus part of how they beat the unarmored forces of the 85th Division

[kalos72]

Well that leads to one of my all time issues...how did the US go through 7000 M1 tanks, not including anything produced during the war.

Surely there had to be some stock in the US even if naval transport was limited...

Not sure that issue has a resolution honestly...

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the game was written right about the time the Lima Tank Plant was going to 120 tanks per month - in other words they most likely had the old tank production rate of 30 tanks per month in mind when they did the game - they may have had no idea that eventually the US Army would field over 7000 of the M1, M1A1 and M1A2 tanks - thats why you still see the M60 in some units where in the real world by 1995 the M1 was basically in service in both the regular military and the Guard

Thus they had the US military less equipped in terms of armor than they would have been in a real world Cold War never ends situation by 1995 - especially with how the US would have ramped up tank production with the start of the war in China.

[kalos72]

Perhaps the Red River Depot could be worked into why Texian Legion seems to be so strong?

[Olefin]

if they have control of the Depot that would add a lot of weaponry to their arsenal - course that depends on how far the Mexicans got - if the Army withdrew from there it would leave a lot of material behind - just too much to move

[kalos72]

That makes sense...the 5th Army is too busy with the Mexican/Soviet advance and some "local patriots" make a power play for the Depot.

Side note: Where do they make Bradley's or HMMWV's anyways? Maybe another Texas resource...

I assume Lima was the only Abrams plant... M60's?

[Olefin]

Bradleys are made in York PA - there is reset work at the Red River Plant but its mostly for parts for the Bradley not whole vehicles - for instance we got tracks and weapons from there along with other parts that were refurbished at the depot

Lima is the only US tank plant now - but remember that you would have the AGS being made at the York United Defence Plant and the Cadillac Gage facilities making the Stingray during the war as well

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Bradleys are made in York PA - there is reset work at the Red River Plant but its mostly for parts for the Bradley not whole vehicles - for instance we got tracks and weapons from there along with other parts that were refurbished at the depot

I thought the San Jose plant was the sole source of Bradleys prior to its closure?

Lima is the only US tank plant now - but remember that you would have the AGS being made at the York United Defence Plant and the Cadillac Gage facilities making the Stingray during the war as well

Don't forget the Detroit Army Tank Plant.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by kalos72

That makes sense...the 5th Army is too busy with the Mexican/Soviet advance and some "local patriots" make a power play for the Depot.

Side note: Where do they make Bradley's or HMMWV's anyways? Maybe another Texas resource...

I assume Lima was the only Abrams plant... M60's?

M1s were built at both Lima and Detroit.

HMMWVs are built in Mishawaka, Indiana.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Well that leads to one of my all time issues...how did the US go through 7000 M1 tanks, not including anything produced during the war.

Surely there had to be some stock in the US even if naval transport was limited...

Not sure that issue has a resolution honestly...

I recall the DC Group taking a crack at that question - see this post. Fightingflamingo worked up a pretty detailed spreadsheet.

[mpipes]

M1s are also built at Anniston Army Depot.

[kalos72]

Ok thanks for the link. Another Masterpiece by the DC Group for sure!!

[Olefin]

United Defence switched Bradley production over to the York PA plant from the San Jose plant prior to the start of the war using the real date. The plant at York did reset, refurbishment and remanufacture of Bradleys and was capable of building new ones as well.

The San Jose facility was turned into R&D for Bradley as well as engineering for Bradley stayed there as well. Also many test facilities remained there including the ballistics lab.

York in the timeline would have been producing remanufactured M88A2, new M8 AGS, remanufactured M109A5 and A6 SPG, reset Bradley's and remanufactured Bradleys - and with the war looming probably would have begun production of new Bradley's as well and new M109A6. Also the M9 ACE.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by mpipes

M1s are also built at Anniston Army Depot.

M1s are refurbished at Anniston. They zero-mile war hulls, to see some of the wrecks they've brought in there, you'd think they were totally new builds once they're done with them but they have no foundry for casting new hulls nor do they have the facilities to manufacture Chobham armor.

[rcaf_777]

M1 production happened at the Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant in Warren MI, till 1996.

The MI production plant is still the Lima Army Tank Plant, which has produced M1 since 1980.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

M1 production happened at the Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant in Warren MI, till 1996.

Given that we were in hot per the T2k timeline I'd wager it was still a 24/7 affair up until it got nuked (along with Lima) in Nov. '97.

The MI production plant is still the Lima Army Tank Plant, which has produced M1 since 1980.

Not any more; it's been shut down too.

The Army is not and has no plans to permanently close the Joint Systems Manufacturing Center, JSMC. Army officials are planning to end U.S. Army tank production in the JSMC from 2015 to 2016 because the U.S. Army has built all of the tanks that the troops need, given the current Army force structure, which dictates how many vehicles it needs in Active and Reserve Units as well as Contingency storage in case the vehicles are needed for a war. The Army did not convince Congress that it did not need more tanks in 2011, so in 2013, Congress funded an additional tanks to be built at a cost of ~$270M. The Army plans on building those tanks and parking them in storage. At the end of the day there will be ~200 "brand new" tanks in storage because the Army reduced the quantity of tanks it needed in its Force Structure - how many of each vehicle and number of troops, etc. Additionally, there are ~4000 tanks in storage in the desert. The plant will continue to produce other products including the Israeli Merkava and Abrams Foreign Military tanks during that timeframe. The Army is considering layaway of the plant if there is a gap with no additional production between 2013 and 2017. The Army will layaway unused equipment. General Dynamics Land Systems, which currently operates in the government owned factory, opposed the closure, arguing that suspension of operations would increase long-term costs and reduce flexibility.[7][8] Recapitalization efforts during the war have resulted in the youngest fleet age in the history of the Abrams program. The average age of the Abrams tank in U.S. Army service less than two years old. Plant closure would cost the Army $822 million in closing and re-opening costs, which is far less money than continuing production and storage costs for tanks that won't be used.[9] If passed, a bill currently in the U.S. Senate would allocate $272 million in funds toward the plant to allow it to continue regular operations through July 2014. This bill did pass and GDLS is lobbying for an additional $180M.[10]

(wackypedia, but their sources are straight from congressional record, etc. on this one)

With that said we've got 2000 M1 hulls sitting in the desert in California doing nothing but getting really hot during the day and cold during the night.

[rcaf_777]

I don't recall seeing Lima or warren on the list of nuke targets

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I don't recall seeing Lima or warren on the list of nuke targets

There's a Challenge module that notes Lima got hit but the strike missed the plant directly; a team is sent in to reconnoiter the factory and make off with any operational tanks (there's rumors that there's an entire brigade's worth of M1s that were on rolling stock when the missiles fell; it's actually just equipment and tooling - I think, I don't have the issue handy).

Anyway, Warren is within biking distance of downtown Detroit; it's going to burn, and then be covered with radioactive fallout.

Also IIRC Howling Wilderness only notes "targets that were hit with 1.5 megaton or above" blasts; a pattern around Detroit to make sure all industrial targets were hit, like from an SS-20 with 750kt warheads, is a near-certainty.

But, again, even discounting that, Warren is in the fallout radius.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

There's a Challenge module that notes Lima got hit but the strike missed the plant directly; a team is sent in to reconnoiter the factory and make off with any operational tanks (there's rumors that there's an entire brigade's worth of M1s that were on rolling stock when the missiles fell; it's actually just equipment and tooling - I think, I don't have the issue handy).

Challenge issue 56 - Lima Incident.

-- SPOILER - highlight text to view --
"The 30 M-1s reported turn out to be three operational M-1s, and only one has complete armament."
-- END OF SPOILER --

[kato13]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Also IIRC Howling Wilderness only notes "targets that were hit with 1.5 megaton or above" blasts; a pattern around Detroit to make sure all industrial targets were hit, like from an SS-20 with 750kt warheads, is a near-certainty.

Actually it is a 500kt threshold.

Someone listed the warheads the sovs had in 1989 and there were surprisingly few that were strategic and below that threshold. IIRC only two platforms had versions had sub 500kt options and the max estimated warhead count was still well below 200.

Anything could have happened between 1989 (the USSR peak warhead count) and our fake 1997, but given those numbers I always assumed that the non listed strikes would not outnumber the listed ones (as there were thousands of Strategic 500kt+ warheads).

[kalos72]

I wonder if there is a complied list of manufacturing plants for the major combat systems out there?

Tanks, M2 / M113 / HMMWV's / 20MM+ cannons / M2HB's / Mark 19's / M40's, etc...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I wonder if there is a complied list of manufacturing plants for the major combat systems out there?

Tanks, M2 / M113 / HMMWV's / 20MM+ cannons / M2HB's / Mark 19's / M40's, etc...

I think AAI had a factory in...Rockville, MD? I know that's where they're located in real life, anyway. (AAI is the chief manufacturer of what we'd know as the LAV-75).

[Olefin]

brought the M1 tank factory thread back to life - have a feeling as I said it all depends on how much inventory they had as to how many they can make - and I doubt the GDW guys new how much inventory your typical vehicle production plant, especially one in the middle of the 90's had on hand before they switched to just in time production and LEAN methods

As to plants that didnt get hit by nukes - GDW had some very obvious targets survive - for instance they made it very clear that the targets mentioned in PA in Howling Wildnerness and Allegheny Uprising were the only targets hit in PA - period. Which means that the Russians never hit the United Defense plant at York, let alone the Harley plant there and the Caterpillar plant - thats a heck of a trifecta to leave intact - (and lets not even mention not hitting Carlisle or Three Mile Island or Harrisburg - blow those bridges at Harrisburg and you really screw up traffic thru PA)

[rcaf_777]

I wonder where tank or tank parts are going to made in the US? I mean Lima could be the only location, would other industries making war items like in WWII?

Would some european companies relocate production to the US and Canada so they can be out of the way of conventional bombing?

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I wonder if there is a complied list of manufacturing plants for the major combat systems out there?

Tanks, M2 / M113 / HMMWV's / 20MM+ cannons / M2HB's / Mark 19's / M40's, etc...

Coming in REAL late on this thread... but...

I've got "strategic resource" lists for both NATO and the Pact. The NATO one is still definitely a work in progress, while the Pact one is definitely more complete. Both have about 3000 sites on them... airbases, C3I installations, power plants, refineries, steel mills, truck, tractor, bulldozer, locomotive and automotive assembly plants and a dozen or so other categories. I'm going to fiddle around on Google Maps after I get the website back up and see if I can make it available for browsing.